fuses vs. breakers

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DaveBowden

Senior Member
Location
St Petersburg FL
Due to most insurance companies cancelling homeowners policies in this state, most people are having to go to the state run Citizen's Insurance Company. Unfortunately, I'm soon to be one of them.
When a homeowner goes there for insurance, Citizens does an inspection of the property before they will write the policy.
One of the things they require when they do this inspection is replacing any existing fuse boxes with circuit breaker boxes. They give us no choice.
While I don't mind the work it creates for me ( I just bid a job Friday to do exactly that), I really don't want to have to get rid of MY fuse box.
I've been doing electrical work here since 1972 and have been on numerous jobs where cables have burned from one end of the house to the other without tripping a breaker. Granted, most - but not all - have been Zinsco breakers. I don't recall ever going to a job with fuses where a properly sized fuse did not blow.
My contention is that fuse manufacturers know exactly how to mix the fuse link alloy to melt when it is supposed to but that with breakers you don't know if you've got one that's too strong or too weak until after you've got a problem.
Any other opinions out there?
 
IMO there is nothing wrong with fuses providing they are properly sized according to the conductors that they're protecting. That seems to be the problem, people putting 30 amp fuses on old 15 amp conductors. Some people put pennies under them so they have little or no protection at all.

Unfortunately insurance companies can do what they want. But not writing policies for a listed product that is properly installed and maintained justs seem wrong.
 
fuses vs. breakers

DaveBowden said:
Due to most insurance companies cancelling homeowners policies in this state, most people are having to go to the state run Citizen's Insurance Company. Unfortunately, I'm soon to be one of them.
When a homeowner goes there for insurance, Citizens does an inspection of the property before they will write the policy.
One of the things they require when they do this inspection is replacing any existing fuse boxes with circuit breaker boxes. They give us no choice.
While I don't mind the work it creates for me ( I just bid a job Friday to do exactly that), I really don't want to have to get rid of MY fuse box.
I've been doing electrical work here since 1972 and have been on numerous jobs where cables have burned from one end of the house to the other without tripping a breaker. Granted, most - but not all - have been Zinsco breakers. I don't recall ever going to a job with fuses where a properly sized fuse did not blow.
My contention is that fuse manufacturers know exactly how to mix the fuse link alloy to melt when it is supposed to but that with breakers you don't know if you've got one that's too strong or too weak until after you've got a problem.
Any other opinions out there?
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Insurance company's in this area are doing the same thing,now they are requiring ho to replace k&t wiring.

I am told the reason for removing the k&t is that they found out that, circuit breakers do not protect k&t wiring as well as fuses.So to cover their a----- the are making ho remove the k&t.

Seems kind of useless to me,as only the exposed portion gets removed and what goes into the walls and ceiling remains.

I repeat this is what I have been told.
 
We had a little old lady whose policy renewal notice included a blurb that stated a 50% premium surcharge would apply until her fuse box was replaced by a licensed electrician, and inspection certificate produced.

I got the job, and guess what? Yup, all the plug fuses were 30's on 15 and 20 amp circuits.

It's things like this that cause insurance companies to balk when they are the ones who have to assume the cost of liability from fire damage. It's really a no-brainer if you think about it. Too easy to "put in a 30" when the 15 or 20 amp fuse blows. Or install a short section of copper plumbingpipe in lieu of cartridge fuses. Or putting that penny in there when your fuse blows after all the stores have closed, and you're out of spares.

It's quite often that I will be on a service call of a breaker tripping where the customer wants me to "install a 30, since that 20 won't hold" -- this mentality seems to be a holdover from the fuse box days. Didn't matter that the 20 amp breaker was doing its intended job, since there was a short circuit present.

We traced the problem to a short section of wire between a wall switch and a receptacle outlet. Looking down on the floor, one could see a trail of mouse poops leading to the wall directly below the shorted outlet.

Best guess is that "mickey" has been chewing on the romex in the wall, which finally shorted out. :mad:

...been on numerous jobs where cables have burned from one end of the house to the other without tripping a breaker. Granted, most - but not all - have been Zinsco breakers....
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Have you ever seen this with Square D type QO breakers? That's the only type we install on service change outs.

Try this experiement: Plug in a 100 foot extension cord into an outlet protected by a QO120 breaker, and a 20 Amp fuse wired in series. Place a dead short across the output of that cord. See which blows or trips out first. Betcha it ain't the fuse.... :D
 
fuses vs.breakers

fuses vs.breakers

kbsparky said:
We had a little old lady whose policy renewal notice included a blurb that stated a 50% premium surcharge would apply until her fuse box was replaced by a licensed electrician, and inspection certificate produced.

I got the job, and guess what? Yup, all the plug fuses were 30's on 15 and 20 amp circuits.

It's things like this that cause insurance companies to balk when they are the ones who have to assume the cost of liability from fire damage. It's really a no-brainer if you think about it. Too easy to "put in a 30" when the 15 or 20 amp fuse blows. Or install a short section of copper plumbingpipe in lieu of cartridge fuses. Or putting that penny in there when your fuse blows after all the stores have closed, and you're out of spares.

It's quite often that I will be on a service call of a breaker tripping where the customer wants me to "install a 30, since that 20 won't hold" -- this mentality seems to be a holdover from the fuse box days. Didn't matter that the 20 amp breaker was doing its intended job, since there was a short circuit present.

We traced the problem to a short section of wire between a wall switch and a receptacle outlet. Looking down on the floor, one could see a trail of mouse poops leading to the wall directly below the shorted outlet.

Best guess is that "mickey" has been chewing on the romex in the wall, which finally shorted out. :mad:

Have you ever seen this with Square D type QO breakers? That's the only type we install on service change outs.

Try this experiement: Plug in a 100 foot extension cord into an outlet protected by a QO120 breaker, and a 20 Amp fuse wired in series. Place a dead short across the output of that cord. See which blows or trips out first. Betcha it ain't the fuse.... :D
Click to expand...

Type s fuses (fustats) would take care of the over fusing issue
 
romeo said:
Type s fuses (fustats) would take care of the over fusing issue
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While I agree in principle that using type S adapters can limit the abuse of plug fuse circuits, they do not help with the copper tubing substitution problem inherient with cartridge fuses.
 
replacement

replacement

so.....the HO looks for the lowest price and hires smeone who ONLY replaces the fuse box with a breaker panel (no circuit additions or modifications), HO gets his inspection. Two weeks later he complains to "uncle frank" that the kitchen 15 amp breaker keeps tripping (wheras the 30 amp plug fuse rarely blew)..no prolblem! uncle frank goes to thhe big box store and purchases and installs a 30 amp breaker... problem solved !
electrical contractor, supplier, municipiality, and inspector all made a dollar, insuarnce company is happy, and now, with her new 30 amp breaker, homneowner is happy. Only in America :D
 
Dave, just go out and get a 100a special at a local big box store, breakers included. Get a flush mount. Cut a hole in a sheetrock wall the size of the backbox, and slide it in there. It's as easy as installing a wall safe. It's highly unlikely an insurance policy inspector is actually going to think it's a dummy panel, and flip breakers. At that point he'll stop looking for a fuse box, and would probably glaze right over your actual fuse box if spotted, his mind content you have a perfectly good, well maintained circuit breaker panel.

When he leaves, return the merchandise to it's rightful home. :grin:
 
This is a borrowed Image from Brian John
EMTFUSESbyBrianJohn.jpg
[/IMG]
 
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
Dave, just go out and get a 100a special at a local big box store, breakers included. Get a flush mount. Cut a hole in a sheetrock wall the size of the backbox, and slide it in there. It's as easy as installing a wall safe. It's highly unlikely an insurance policy inspector is actually going to think it's a dummy panel, and flip breakers. At that point he'll stop looking for a fuse box, and would probably glaze right over your actual fuse box if spotted, his mind content you have a perfectly good, well maintained circuit breaker panel.

When he leaves, return the merchandise to it's rightful home. :grin:
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Sounds like alot of effort:confused:
If it is such an issue get breakers with a lesser inverse trip ratio. I believe QO breakers have a lower trip setting then GE.
although you could get them set special for you if you have the $$$$$$$
 
fuses vs. breakers

LawnGuyLandSparky said:
Dave, just go out and get a 100a special at a local big box store, breakers included. Get a flush mount. Cut a hole in a sheetrock wall the size of the backbox, and slide it in there. It's as easy as installing a wall safe. It's highly unlikely an insurance policy inspector is actually going to think it's a dummy panel, and flip breakers. At that point he'll stop looking for a fuse box, and would probably glaze right over your actual fuse box if spotted, his mind content you have a perfectly good, well maintained circuit breaker panel.

When he leaves, return the merchandise to it's rightful home. :grin:
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LOL this reminds me of a situation,many many year ago.

The owner of a cheap hotel was ordered to install exhaust fans in bath rooms.The company I worked for was hired to do the job.The owner had us install a very cheap fan,then would not let us wire it .I think she got away with it.
 
The only reason I can see for this required upgrade is to modernize the box..BUT if there is no corrosion or water damage most older residential fuse panels had copper bus, most newer residential panels seem to be aluminum alloy...

Both fuses and circuit breakers have their advantages and disadvantages...David from Busman can chime in here___________________.
 
being that the insurance companies are run by such good gambling bosses, I have to assume that they have good reason for doing this, which leads me to believe that even though its in their best interest, a by-product is that it probably must result in fewer deaths either from electrocutions or houses burning down. of course, this is just a guess, but I'd give ya 3 to 1 odds on it.
 
nakulak said:
I have to assume that they have good reason for doing this
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Don't count on it... my father used to work for one of the major insurance companies (one you'd see advertising nationally for sports events and so on). Plenty of examples there of changes in their future policies due to isolated/random events that may or may not hold up to statistical scrutiny.
 
kbsparky said:
THOSE are not Square D breakers, but fakes sold by a non-authorized supplier.
You won't have to worry about the quality if you buy from your authorized distributor.
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And I'd agree wholeheartedly, were it not for this little tidbit excerpted from the Recall Notice.
"Sold through: Electrical Distributors and hardware stores nationwide from February 2005 through August 2006 for between about $6.50 and $15.50":confused:
 
lbwireman said:
And I'd agree wholeheartedly, were it not for this little tidbit excerpted from the Recall Notice.
"Sold through: Electrical Distributors and hardware stores nationwide from February 2005 through August 2006 for between about $6.50 and $15.50":confused:
Click to expand...

FWIW, I do not believe any AUTHORIZED Square D distributors/retailers were(are?) involved this this recall.
 
David from Busman can chime in here
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I'm here....
IMO there is nothing wrong with fuses providing they are properly sized according to the conductors that they're protecting. That seems to be the problem, people putting 30 amp fuses on old 15 amp conductors. Some people put pennies under them so they have little or no protection at all
Click to expand...
The only thing I might add is to stress to the HO to exercise the breakers 1-2 times a year.
"The cause of the fire was electrical in nature"....does this sound familiar?
This means with most residential homes, the breaker didn't trip. I think the ole FPE should be flagged by the insurance companies. I accidently cut through my hedge trimmer cord this year and the breaker didn't even think about tripping.
Just my $.02
 
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