Gas Piping lots of contradictions....long post sorry

[wrobotronic]

Hello All,
I am having huge issues with AHJs and other electricians and the need or not need for bonding the gas lines and CSST. The NEC seems to be very contradictory in this regard.

Some electricians are using the #2 Al GEC from the UFER to the gas main line to the water inlet. I was under the impression that this makes the gas pipe a grounding electrode, which is not legal (250.52). Hence I remove it. However, 250.104B states that the GEC CAN be used in this regard. I am so very confused and perhaps I have read so much that I am making it harder on myself.

In the above case, I remove the GEC from the gas main and use the ground in the circuit that supplies the furnace to meet the requirements of 250.104B

The biggest issue I have found is that many get the terms of grounding and bonding confused and tend to use them interchangeably, which can lead to more confusion.

So my question is: Does anyone have a reference with pictures that can explain gas pipe bonding simply and in a straight forward manner? Also, with this regard, the metal gas pipe IS continuous to my circuit ground. So why is there a need to bond, when to me, continuity, or lack thereof, is the need to bond in the first place. I have just lost hope, if I ask 3 inspectors, I get 3 different answers, and the same with electricians. I also have no doubt that my brain is scrambled and I may be confusing this more than needed.

Finally, the POCO says that NOTHING is to be attached to the GAS piping system (and they will remove any such electrical attachments) because of Cathodic charges on the main for corrosion protection, or that the main is poly and attachment is not needed, or there is a dielectric union on the Gas Meter that isolates the system anyway.

To summarize: I do not attach anything directly to the gas pipe and I use the ground in the circuit that supplies the furnace and that should thus make the gas pipe continuous throughout the entire gas system.

I am sorry for the long post, previous posts on this subject were confusing me and I thought a fresh look may help me and others decipher what EXACTLY needs to be done.

Then there is CSST... I think I will wait on that and just tackle the gas main for now...

 

[kwired]

NEC simply states that metallic gas piping only needs bonded by the equipment grounding conductor of the circuit that may energize the pipe. Run an EGC with the branch circuit to say a furnace (which is required anyway) and you are done as far as NEC is concerned.

Additional bonding requirements of CSST is product specific and covered by the product installation instructions.

Is also my opinion it is the CSST installer's responsibility to install it correctly, not the electrician's. We put an intersystem bonding termination point in for others to bond their equipment to the electrical system, no reason a gas piping installer can't land their bonding conductor there when they install their pipe.

JMO with some facts inserted here and there.

It is not my piping install and I want no responsibility for it other then from the electrical system up to the intersystem bonding terminal.

 

[mwm1752]

I agree with kwired on his assessment - extra bonding not required per NEC -- but I'd rather the EC get involved to properly run the bonding wire & connection due to experience -- I find it disturbing the fuel gas industry produces a product that now requires additional bonding to the grounding system. The international fuel gas code requires the bonding as well as manufactures.

 

[kwired]

I agree with kwired on his assessment - extra bonding not required per NEC -- but I'd rather the EC get involved to properly run the bonding wire & connection due to experience -- I find it disturbing the fuel gas industry produces a product that now requires additional bonding to the grounding system. The international fuel gas code requires the bonding as well as manufactures.

I might be ok with that if they would make one standard for any type of CSST, and put it in the NEC.

As it has been I have been asked to install the bonding a few times and get a different story every time on what the requirements are.

I plan to decline installing such bonding in the future, and explain that it is a product installation requirement and not something in electrical codes, I installed a intersystem bonding terminal for the purpose of bonding by others to other sytems, that is where you can run your bonding to. On top of that I won't fail an electrical inspection for not doing so, it is any inspection for the gas piping that will fail, and I don't need any additional liability for installations of gas piping when that is not what I do.

 

[augie47]

Here are some sites where you can get more info on the CSST:

(click to enlarge)

Note in a "normal" gas piping system there is a dielectric coupling, often as part of the meter, that isolates the premises piping from the gas utility so grounding the premises piping does not effect the utility piping.

 

[packersparky]

NEC simply states that metallic gas piping only needs bonded by the equipment grounding conductor of the circuit that may energize the pipe. Run an EGC with the branch circuit to say a furnace (which is required anyway) and you are done as far as NEC is concerned.

Additional bonding requirements of CSST is product specific and covered by the product installation instructions.

Is also my opinion it is the CSST installer's responsibility to install it correctly, not the electrician's. We put an intersystem bonding termination point in for others to bond their equipment to the electrical system, no reason a gas piping installer can't land their bonding conductor there when they install their pipe.

JMO with some facts inserted here and there.

It is not my piping install and I want no responsibility for it other then from the electrical system up to the intersystem bonding terminal.

The 2017 NEC clarifies that the intersytem bonding termination is not to be used for anything other than bonding communications systems. CSST cannot be connected to the intersystem bonding terminal.

 

[rcarroll]

The 2017 NEC clarifies that the intersytem bonding termination is not to be used for anything other than bonding communications systems. CSST cannot be connected to the intersystem bonding terminal.

Do you have a code section? I don't see that 250.94 prohibits CSST or any other system. :?

 

[packersparky]

Do you have a code section? I don't see that 250.94 prohibits CSST or any other system. :?

The title of 250.94 is now "Bonding for Communication Systems".

 

[mwm1752]

definitions is pretty specific also -- very interestingk 250.104 (B) info note 2 though not code references NFPA 54 & fuel gas code NEC 2017

 

[rcarroll]

The title of 250.94 is now "Bonding for Communication Systems".

Yes, but does that prohibit bonding the CSST?

 

[augie47]

The listing for Ground Devices intended for telecommunication, KDSH in the White Book, states "grounding devices intended for use in telecommunication systems... " in accordance with Articles 770,800, 810, 820 & 830 and Section 250.94 of the NEC"
The listing does not cover other bonding.

 

[mwm1752]

can find NEC references to both Fuel gas code in FPN & Manufactures install requirements( note use of qualified persons to bond system) & same as rigid metallic piping
IFGC
310.1.1 CSST. Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) gas piping systems and piping systems containing one or more segments of CSST shall be bonded to the electrical service grounding electrode system or, where provided, the lightning protection grounding electrode system.
310.1.1.1 Point of connection. The bonding jumper shall connect to a metallic pipe, pipe fitting or CSST fitting.
310.1.1.2 Size and material of jumper. The bonding jumper shall be not smaller than 6 AWG copper wire or equivalent.
310.1.1.3 Bonding jumper length. The length of the bonding jumper between the connection to a gas piping system and the connection to a grounding electrode system shall not exceed 75 feet (22 860 mm). Any additional grounding electrodes used shall be bonded to the electrical service grounding electrode system or, where provided, the lightning protection grounding electrode system.
4.10 WARDFLEX® CSST ELECTRICAL BONDING
Direct bonding is required for all natural and LP gas piping systems incorporating WARDFLEX® CSST whether or not the piping system is connected to an electrically powered gas appliance. Direct bonding is included as part of the manufacture’s requirements for both single family and multi-family buildings. A person knowledgeable about electrical system design, local electrical code, and these requirements should specify the bonding for commercial applications. WARDFLEX® CSST installed inside or attached to the exterior of a building or structure shall be electrically continuous and directly bonded, by a qualified person, to the ground system of the building. The gas piping is considered to be directly bonded when installed in accordance with the following instructions:
• A bonding conductor is permanently and directly connected to the electrical service grounding system.
This can be achieved through a connection to the electrical service equipment enclosure, the grounded
conductor at the electrical service, the grounding electrode conductor (where of sufficient size) or to the
one or more grounding electrodes used.
WARDFLEX® II CSST Piping Systems have no additional bonding requirements imposed by the manufacturer. WARDFLEX® II shall be bonded in accordance with the National Electrical Code NFPA 70 Article 250.104 in the same manner as rigid metallic piping systems. In the event that local code requirements conflict with the WARDFLEX® II bonding requirements, local code must take recedence. It is the responsibility of the trained installer to verify all local code compliance.

 

[rcarroll]

Well, strike me down! :ashamed: Thank you. :thumbsup:

 

[wrobotronic]

golly. you all are smart. Thank you very much for all the help...

Cheers,
Wrobo

 

[wrobotronic]

So. Then would only the CSST manifold be bonded or would one need to bond each run of CSST ?

I say each run daisy'd to the GES? Maybe? IDK... lol

 

[kwired]

I still don't have a 2017, but if what has been mentioned is true, that is just plain stupid.

I thought the whole idea back when they first put that intersystem bonding requirement in there was to help keep others out of our equipment, now they want to let someone back in? They can throw in the "qualified person" phrase, but I'd still rather have what we once had where they wanted some exposed GEC near the service disconnect so others can tap onto that then make the electrician run a bond wire to a gas pipe that seems to have different requirements for each different product out there. I will say it again we are not gas pipe installers, bonding CSST is a task that goes with installing the CSST. Bonding metallic gas piping systems in NEC otherwise is permitted by the EGC of the appliance that operates on the gas:slaphead:

Why should we take on any liability related to the installation of gas piping if that is not what we do? if anything this crap should be banned. I have an all electric home so there is no gas, but I don't think I would want any of that in my house. I'd cut and thread black pipe myself before I'd let someone install that stuff, I do have the equipment to do it also.

 

[mwm1752]

kwired -- I did not copy paste false documents so interprete whether it is true or not -- don't shoot the messenger -- EC's here had never had a problem dealing with the additional bonding (more $) but do have a problem with a fuel gas guy working in their panels (where connections are to be made). -- Just curious what liability are you worried about? once installed properly the job is complete --

FYI I've heard the gas supplier has been removing the connection if they see it on the load side of the dielectric connection figure that out??

 

[kwired]

kwired -- I did not copy paste false documents so interprete whether it is true or not -- don't shoot the messenger -- EC's here had never had a problem dealing with the additional bonding (more $) but do have a problem with a fuel gas guy working in their panels (where connections are to be made). -- Just curious what liability are you worried about? once installed properly the job is complete --

FYI I've heard the gas supplier has been removing the connection if they see it on the load side of the dielectric connection figure that out??

Not trying to shoot the messenger, just venting on my stance on this CSST. My understanding for the need to bond it the way they want it bonded is to minimize formation of pinholes in the tubing during surge events, particularly lightning related events. Why on earth would you want to put something like that in a building in the first place? Why would an electrician want anything to do with it? Bonding it according to it's instructions is one of the tasks required to complete the installation and should be the responsibility of the person installing the tubing. If an electrician installs the bonding to it, then he is partly liable for the installation of the gas piping. I don't think my liability insurance policy mentions anything about installing gas piping in activities my company does.

I also think NEC needs to stay out of this area, and that the intersystem bonding terminal should be for anything non power to be able to connect to.

BTW I still see intersystem bonding terminals not being used by the communications industry though we have been required to install them for some time now. They will put a clamp on a metal raceway, a meter socket, a panelboard, an air conditioner disconnect, a sillcock - even though if you look inside it is supplied with non metallic piping.:slaphead:

One of my favorites (not) is to loosen a set screw on an EMT fitting and wrap their bond wire around it and tighten it back down, then the screw don't reach the tubing in the fitting anymore to assure bond between the raceway and fitting. Also sometimes see their bond wire wrapped around a panel cover screw.

Might as well let the gas man use it if those it was mostly intended for aren't going to use it.

Satellite TV installers are the worst offenders.

 

[mwm1752]

That's classic"just venting "on this fuel gas discussion :thumbsup: -- I couldn't agree more on questioning the install of a product that creates a hazard issue during lighting strikes --

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Not to worry, the Natl. Fuel/Gas code is just as sketchy as NEC is...
FWIW, grew up running black pipe for gas lines, as well as copper for 2 psi systems, CSST is garbage.