Recently a topic came up regarding where a GEC must terminate in a grounding electrode system. Say you have 2 electrodes, a metal water pipe and ground rods. Both electrodes are required to be bonded together to create the grounding electrode system. The point of contention was where the GEC is required to terminate. Can it terminate at either of the electrodes? The argument was that the ground rods are supplemental, therefore the GEC must terminate at the metal water pipe. Is it permissible for the GEC to terminate at the ground rods?
GEC connection to grounding electrode system
- Thread starter Tjack303
- Start date
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
it depends on how THe GES is built
200 amp service if you bond from the eystem neutral to the ground rods with a 6awg copper, would it make any sense to bond from the rods to the water pipe with the required # 4 copper
but if you bond from the neutral to the rods with a # 4 awg than to the water pipe with a #4 awg the water pipe would be bonded with the correct size from the system neutral to the water pipe
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200 amp service if you bond from the eystem neutral to the ground rods with a 6awg copper, would it make any sense to bond from the rods to the water pipe with the required # 4 copper
but if you bond from the neutral to the rods with a # 4 awg than to the water pipe with a #4 awg the water pipe would be bonded with the correct size from the system neutral to the water pipe
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Keep in mind you are not limited to one grounding electrode conductor. You can have a GEC from a service point tp the rods and a different GEC from a service point to the water OR, if sized properly, you can connect from one electrode to another as david states.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
The GEC can be connected to any grounding electrode and the additional electrodes can be connected to the GEC using bonding jumpers. The only issue is that the GEC must be sized to the largest that is required for any of the grounding electrodes. So in the case of the GEC connecting to ground rods, where you would be permitted to use a 6 AWG GEC, you would be required to use a full size GEC from Table 250.66 if there will be a bonding jumper from the GEC to the metal underground water pipe.
Thanks guys, that was my interpretation as well, but I had multiple people insist the GEC could ONLY connect to the water pipe with a jumper to the rods. And that connecting the GEC to the rods with a jumper to the water pipe was a violation, though they couldn't cite a code. Though I know that is not a typical installation I just wanted to make sure there wasn't an actual code violation there, assuming the GEC was properly sized
That is likely where the "violation" thinking originated. The common practice of using a #6 or #4 to ground rods often leads to an undersized bond jumper to the water...thus a violation... thus the comments you are hearing.
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
As long as the jumper size details are accounted for... You are right, they are wrong.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Many people do not actually understand how a GES works so no one should be surprised that you received incorrect information.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
you can install individual GEC to each grounding electrode that is present or added to a system. you can have a spider type installation where you have one GEC TO ANY Grounding electrode that you decide to bond to than install bonding from that electrode to all the remaining electrode that you incorporate into the grounding electrode system. you can daisy chain all your electrodes together and install the grounding electrode conductor to any electrode in the chain of electrodes
the key is to make sure every electrode in the grounding electrode system has the correct size awg conductor path to the system neutral. the more electrodes you add to any one path the more careful you need to be that your providing the correct size bonding path back to the grounded conductor of the system
the key is to make sure every electrode in the grounding electrode system has the correct size awg conductor path to the system neutral. the more electrodes you add to any one path the more careful you need to be that your providing the correct size bonding path back to the grounded conductor of the system
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
as a side note since you mentioned ground rods and it has been pointed out in this thread 6 awg copper is all that is required for a grounding electrode conductor to those rods. Here in this region of PA. the utilities have no restriction on bonding the grounded conductor in the meter enclosure. It is not a code requirement to use the location from the grounded conductor to the ground rods but why not use that location. Keep in mind PA utilities require two ground rods by there utility regulations.
What im getting at if the # 6 awg is to play a part in a lighting path way to the earth why in designing the pathway would we bring that into the building to the service equipment than back outside. If we have the design choice to go from the outside equipment directly to the earth.
What im getting at if the # 6 awg is to play a part in a lighting path way to the earth why in designing the pathway would we bring that into the building to the service equipment than back outside. If we have the design choice to go from the outside equipment directly to the earth.
BcSparky423
Member
- Location
- Tennessee
- Occupation
- Residential Electrician
So if I install a new 2 rod grounding system during a panel upgrade, and run a 4guage gec from the 2 rods to the main service at the ground bar, and then an existing grounding electrode connected to the water pipes was also ran to the main panels ground bar, is that allowed? They would then be two seperate systems connected together inside the main panel. Is this ok to do?
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Yes, it is permitted to have more than on GEC connected to the neutral in the service.
Fred B
Senior Member
- Location
- Upstate, NY
- Occupation
- Electrician
All GE are to be bonded creating 1 grounding electrode system you don't have 2 separate systems. Having all connected within the single panel is "a" correct way to create the "system".