GEC Floating in Disconnect

[Drstuess]

Hi folks,

Opened the service disconnect in attached garage for the first time. The GEC is just free in the enclosure and is not landed on the ground/ neutral bus. The GEC just exits the disconnect, goes through the wall and into the electrode in the ground. The neutral and ground from the house MLO (sub) panel in the basement are bonded together and to the enclosure at the disconnect (neutral is isolated in basement panel as it should be), but the enclosure is not bonded to the GEC. The meter, exterior wall of where the disconnect is mounted, has no grounding provision and only has the 3 conductors from the pole and (3) 4/0 SER into the disconnect. The GEC does not enter or bond with the meter enclosure at all.

My read is that this is simply not up to code, as the the neutral and "ground" are bonded at the appropriate location, however not actually grounded at the entrance in any of the 3 permitted locations. Bonding the GEC to the neutral/ ground bus in the disconnect should solve this... currently ~ .2 V between GEC and ground/Neutral bus in disconnect, showing no continuity. I know this is a basic situation and seems obviously out of code, but am I missing anything? Could the system be grounded up to code in some way I am not thinking off? -Water main is grounded and seems to have its own electrode on other side of the house, but appears to not be directly bonded with any electrical.

Appreciate the help and happy new year.

 

[charlie b]

I am not completely certain I understand your description. But if you have a wire connected at one end to a grounding electrode and not connected at the other end, you would appear to have a code violation. The GEC needs to be connected to the neutral, and the neutral needs to be bonded to the ground bus, and this needs to happen at (or upstream of) the service disconnection means. But your description also leads me to wonder if the disconnect has fuses. I can’t tell from the photo. But if not, if power goes from utility to meter to unfused disconnect to MLO panel, you have another code issue on your hands.

(Edited to remove statement that thread is being closed. See my next post for clarification.)

 

[charlie b]

I received a Private Message from the Original Poster, assuring me that he has no intention to perform any repair or installation work himself. He was merely looking for opinions on the possibility that he has a code violation or two on his hands. Therefore, I am reopening the thread. I apologize for the delay and inconvenience.

He also mentioned that the disconnect has fuses, and that having an MLO panel downstream is therefore not an issue.

 

[infinity]

Hard to tell from the photo's but is that 4 conductor SER cable into the top of the meter? If so that bare conductor is not needed and can be disconnection allowing the third lug on the neutral to be used for the GEC that's presently not connected.

 

[Drstuess]

To distill this down, the GEC is not terminated to anything in the service disconnect enclosure and neither the meter or utility connect on the side of the house are grounded via GEC either. This seems obviously out of code (and unsafe since the GEC is free to move within the enclosure and sitting ~1 inch from the line side lugs), and since it seemed obvious I was making sure there wasn't something I was missing before I began the process of having someone change it. Answer seems to be I was right and need to get it safely bonded. Thank you Charlie for the input and making sure I wasn't trying to play Operation myself.

 

[kwired]

Hard to tell from the photo's but is that 4 conductor SER cable into the top of the meter? If so that bare conductor is not needed and can be disconnection allowing the third lug on the neutral to be used for the GEC that's presently not connected.

Only item he has shown with cover off is the service disconnect that is apparently on other side of wall from the meter. Service conductors enter the bottom, SER coming out of top is the feeder leaving that enclosure.

One could add a lug to the enclosure if there is no other neutral lugs available and land the EGC on that, freeing up where it was for the GEC.

Add: can't tell if there is a main bonding jumper/screw installed or not - but needs to be one.

 

[infinity]

Only item he has shown with cover off is the service disconnect that is apparently on other side of wall from the meter. Service conductors enter the bottom, SER coming out of top is the feeder leaving that enclosure.

One could add a lug to the enclosure if there is no other neutral lugs available and land the EGC on that, freeing up where it was for the GEC.

Add: can't tell if there is a main bonding jumper/screw installed or not - but needs to be one.

Ah yes (wasn't clear on my phone) :slaphead:, the SEU comes from the meter the SER leaves the service disconnect and goes off to the panel. As you've suggested it needs another lug on the neutral in the service disconnect and a MBJ.

 

[Drstuess]

Hard to tell from the photo's but is that 4 conductor SER cable into the top of the meter? If so that bare conductor is not needed and can be disconnection allowing the third lug on the neutral to be used for the GEC that's presently not connected.

Into and out of the meter is 3 conductor SER. Into the disconnect is the 3 Conductor SER from the meter, plus the GEC straight from the electrode. The GEC is left not terminated in the disconnect. Out of the disconnect is SER ( 3x 4/0 plus 2/0 G) to panel in the basement. Don't there need to be 4 connections to those lugs in the disconnect? Utility Neutral, EGC to basement panel, Neutral to basement panel, and GEC? I am not sure how it could be reconciled with 3. I feel I need someone to add a lug, brundy or polaris.
Sorry for the photo quality, I will see if I can get some better quality.

 

[kwired]

Into and out of the meter is 3 conductor SER. Into the disconnect is the 3 Conductor SER from the meter, plus the GEC straight from the electrode. The GEC is left not terminated in the disconnect. Out of the disconnect is SER ( 3x 4/0 plus 2/0 G) to panel in the basement. Don't there need to be 4 connections to those lugs in the disconnect? Utility Neutral, EGC to basement panel, Neutral to basement panel, and GEC? I am not sure how it could be reconciled with 3. I feel I need someone to add a lug, brundy or polaris.
Sorry for the photo quality, I will see if I can get some better quality.

Is there a bonding screw installed? EGC could land in a lug mounted to the enclosure - which is supposed to be bonded regardless.

 

[Drstuess]

Add: can't tell if there is a main bonding jumper/screw installed or not - but needs to be one.

There is a screw to the side of the smaller lug that is of the right size and there was continuity to the case, but it wasn't green and no picture on the label confirming bonding screw location. I assume that is the bond screw based on the continuity, but I am not gonna play UL with the variac and ground bond test it to confirm. Thanks for the input.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Water main is grounded and seems to have its own electrode on other side of the house, but appears to not be directly bonded with any electrical.


View attachment 21961
View attachment 21960

Is that Service Disconnect breaker and enclosure an FPE assembly?

The absence of a conductor (GEC) in the Service Disconnect that is connected to the local cold water pipe is an omission that stands out to me.

 

[Adamjamma]

is the cold water supply required to be bonded if it is plastic?
Of course, my eyes arent that good

 

[kwired]

There is a screw to the side of the smaller lug that is of the right size and there was continuity to the case, but it wasn't green and no picture on the label confirming bonding screw location. I assume that is the bond screw based on the continuity, but I am not gonna play UL with the variac and ground bond test it to confirm. Thanks for the input.

How old is it, bonding screw wasn't always green. If it threads thru the neutral assembly (not the mounting screws into the insulator portion) and into the enclosure it is the bonding jumper. Looks like maybe a FPE breaker? Some older Murray and Crouse Hinds breakers that look sort of like that also. All old enough that green screw wasn't a requirement AFAIK.

 

[al hildenbrand]

is the cold water supply required to be bonded if it is plastic?

No.

The OP states an observation about the water supply that pretty much says that it is metallic. I included the OP words in my quote, above.

 

[Drstuess]

Is that Service Disconnect breaker and enclosure an FPE assembly?- I believe Crouse Heins

The absence of a conductor (GEC) in the Service Disconnect that is connected to the local cold water pipe is an omission that stands out to me.

I traced another copper grounding conductor from my water main in the basement on the other side of the house, but it exited the exterior wall in the yard ~45ft from the meter-- I am unsure if they are connected under my lawn or patio somewhere.

It is a Crouse Hinds Service Disconnect breaker assembly. House was built in 1970 and all other electrical is old Murray stuff.

 

[al hildenbrand]

I traced another copper grounding conductor from my water main in the basement on the other side of the house, but it exited the exterior wall in the yard ~45ft from the meter-- I am unsure if they are connected under my lawn or patio somewhere.

It is a Crouse Hinds Service Disconnect breaker assembly. House was built in 1970 and all other electrical is old Murray stuff.

Prior to a change in requirements in the Nineties, Grounding Electrode Conductor from the Service Disconnect to the underground metallic water supply pipe could be effected with a properly sized conductor to the closest cold water metallic pipe.

My point is that there is a missing GEC from the Water Supply that should be in your photo of the Crouse Hinds service disconnect.

 

[Drstuess]

Prior to a change in requirements in the Nineties, Grounding Electrode Conductor from the Service Disconnect to the underground metallic water supply pipe could be effected with a properly sized conductor to the closest cold water metallic pipe.

My point is that there is a missing GEC from the Water Supply that should be in your photo of the Crouse Hinds service disconnect.

Could the GEC running from the water main into the yard run in the soil the 50 ft and eventually terminate or connect to the electrode by the meter that the electrical GEC uses? If they are bonded there, vs in the Crouse Hinds service disconnect, would that be sufficient? Overall, set up is not right/up to code and will get someone to fix it. Thanks for the input.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Could the GEC running from the water main into the yard run in the soil the 50 ft and eventually terminate or connect to the electrode by the meter that the electrical GEC uses? If they are bonded there, vs in the Crouse Hinds service disconnect, would that be sufficient? Overall, set up is not right/up to code and will get someone to fix it. Thanks for the input.

I received a Private Message from the Original Poster, assuring me that he has no intention to perform any repair or installation work himself. He was merely looking for opinions on the possibility that he has a code violation or two on his hands. . .

It's "possible" that the GEC from the Service Disconnect to the underground metallic water supply pipe is as you suggest. . . but, in my opinion, it is more likely not.

However, the only way this can be accurately determined is by someone local to you who is versed in the history of residential dwelling wiring in the decade that the Service Disconnect was wired, someone who can visit your house to examine the Premises Wiring System components that are visible in detail. From this side of my screen, very little of that "detail" is available, and eliciting the detail is simply beyond the Forum rules.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Suffice it to say you have Code violations present in the two photos you have shared.

 

[Drstuess]

Suffice it to say you have Code violations present in the two photos you have shared.

Appreciate the input. I will have someone look at it!

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