GEC rod and water pipe

physis · Oct 6, 2004

I've got a panel a ground rod and a water pipe. The GEC from the panel connects to ground rod. Another conductor bonds the ground rod to the water pipe.

Is there a problem here. My interpretation is that this complies but I'm told it doesn't. I dont have the code with me right now so I can't check it.

iwire · Oct 6, 2004

Re: GEC rod and water pipe

Sounds fine to me as long as the conductors are sized for the required water pipe GEC.

physis · Oct 6, 2004

Re: GEC rod and water pipe

No need for continuous GEC from panel to both rod and pipe?

iwire · Oct 6, 2004

Re: GEC rod and water pipe

Say you have 3 grounding electrodes, water pipe, ground rod, and a concrete encased electrode.

Bond these together into a grounding electrode system.

The conductor between these electrodes is a bonding jumper. This is the bonding jumper in 250.53(C)

Now you connect this grounding electrode system to the panel using a Grounding electrode conductor.

This is the conductor required to be continuous by 250.64(C)

physis · Oct 6, 2004

Re: GEC rod and water pipe

That's my understanding. But for some reason I've got two electrical contractors telling me this is no good. The AHJ agrees with us.

dereckbc · Oct 6, 2004

Re: GEC rod and water pipe

Who do you have to satisfy? AHJ or contractors? I would side with the AHJ and let the contractors kick rocks. IWIRE gave you the right code answers.

tom baker · Oct 7, 2004

Re: GEC rod and water pipe

If you have a mike holt grounding and bonding text, it shows the GEC to one ground rod, and a bonding jumper between the two, or two wires and 3 clamps.

physis · Oct 7, 2004

Re: GEC rod and water pipe

Just checking my sanity. I wonder how people become so convinced of something when they've got it wrong. Thanks you guys

Edit: 250.64(F)

If you have a lot of stuff that has to be bonded to the electrode system I guess you just need a really really long piece of wire to get to everything without a splice.

[ October 07, 2004, 05:49 AM: Message edited by: physis ]

charlie b · Oct 7, 2004

Re: GEC rod and water pipe

Originally posted by physis: No need for continuous GEC from panel to both rod and pipe?

Can you clarify what the other contractors had been asking you to do? Did they say you needed:

One wire from panel to rod, and a second wire from panel to pipe (i.e., two GECs, both originating at the panel)?

OR

One wire from the panel to the rod, connected in some manner to the rod, and then the same wire (without having been cut - i.e., continuous) run to the pipe, with this one wire being called a GEC and being sized as a GEC?

If either of these is what they had asked, then I would suggest that you ask them for a code reference. They?ll not be able to give you one.

physis · Oct 7, 2004

Re: GEC rod and water pipe

Unfortunately I neglected to ask how to do it correctly. I'll try to find out. The issue is whether or not the conductor is continuous (and I don't know if they're differentiating between GEC and Bonding Jumper). I'm assuming they want one wire to get both electrodes. I do know that Tom's description from Mike Holt's Grounding and Bonding text isn't acceptable cause that's what it is.

eprice · Oct 7, 2004

Re: GEC rod and water pipe

I suspect they are under the mistaken idea that the GEC needs to go to all(both) of the electrodes and that this GEC can not be spliced.

As iwire pointed out, the NEC requires all of the electrodes to be bonded together using bonding jumpers, and then allows the GEC to go to any convenient electrode in that bonded system of electrodes. It sounds as if this is what you have done, and if your conductors are sized properly, your installation is code compliant.

In your situation, the GEC to the rod will need to be full sized from Table 250.66. You can not take advantage of the allowance in 250.66(A) to reduce its size to #6.

Edit for typos

[ October 07, 2004, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: eprice ]

physis · Oct 7, 2004

Re: GEC rod and water pipe

Initially one contractor complained about this then I called a friend of mine who's an electrical contractor and he agreed with the first contractor. Just to clarify who the two contractors are.

So I just asked this friend of mine how it should be done and his position is the GEC continues to the other electrodes. I asked him how you get an insulated conductor through the little loop with the set screw on the clamp and sure enough you've got to strip the insulation all the way off on one side. I asked him where he learned this from and the answer was sort of like that's just how you have to do it.

This is like Bizarro world.

Are there any inspectors requiring this or anything similar to it? Or are you guys seeing it done like this? Or are these guys just goof balls?

sdbob · Oct 7, 2004

Re: GEC rod and water pipe

I think the problem might be that a lot of electricians still consider the water pipe a ground. These days, with all the plastic pipe, the cold water isn't a ground, but it needs to be grounded.

roger · Oct 7, 2004

Re: GEC rod and water pipe

Physis, I wouldn't call them goof balls, (of course you know them better than we do

) they are just going about things in a difficult way, and in turn, they were going to have you do it too.

Let's face it, article 250 is not easy, and to over compensate is pretty normal in what I see.

Roger

charlie b · Oct 7, 2004

Re: GEC rod and water pipe

Originally posted by physis:. . . the answer was sort of like that's just how you have to do it.

The following things are different:

1. Things that the NEC requires, as a minimum to create a safe installation.

2. Things that a local jurisdictional authority requires, even if they had not been required by the NEC.

3. Things that an engineer conveys in plans and specifications, which then become requirements, even if they had not been required by the NEC.

4. Things that an owner requires, even if they exceed NEC requirements.

5. Things that the NEC permits, but does not require.

6. Things that the NEC conveys as a Fine Print Note, and that it therfore does not require.

7. Things that you were taught by the Master or Journeymen under whom you studied the trade, even if they exceed NEC requirements.

The only items on this list that you ?have to do,? in order to meet code, are the first two. Whether or not you ?have to do? items 3 and 4 is a matter to be determined by your contract, and have more to do with whether or not you will be paid for the job. Items 5, 6, and 7 are never ?have to do? items.

I would place the other contractor?s statement of ?that's just how you have to do it? under category 7.

tom baker · Oct 7, 2004

Re: GEC rod and water pipe

Here is how I explain it
4 answers to a code question
1. code answer
2. ahj answer
3. My answer
4. truck answer

physis · Oct 8, 2004

Re: GEC rod and water pipe

Roger, I probably hate the way the NEC's written more than everybody else in the world combined (it's simply not a path to clarity, at least not a clear one). But it probably works better if you read it. It's pretty funny, these people are shaking their heads like I'm from the moon cause I don't get it.

Goof balls is just a possibility. There may be an actual phenomenon behind it and this is actually really popular. But if it's only these guys they're goof balls.

Charlie, Take a look at this wording.

250.64(F)A grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be run to any convenient grounding electrode available in the grounding electrode system or to one or more grounding electrode(s) individually.

This is actually an order that I be allowed to use the approved method.

So if I may be so bold as to add an eighth item to your list:

8. Things that are specificly permitted despite the ignorant demands of goof balls.

izak · Oct 8, 2004

Re: GEC rod and water pipe

speaking of goof balls, we have a city inspector here that will make you do stuff like run a 1/0 copper to a Ground Rod...
he is fairly new, and since he has come in, he has made up a bunch of stuff that exceeds the code, but the city has no ordinance requiring those things... its just kinda like... hmm... i think that... today im gonna make this guy put weatherproof bubble covers in every receptacle in every bathroom cause they are near a sink and some kid might blow water on it while hes brushing his teeth....

its pretty ridiculous sometimes

physis · Oct 8, 2004

Re: GEC rod and water pipe

I'd like to watch these guys pull that 1/0 through that little hole in the ground rod clamp. :roll:

iwire · Oct 11, 2004

Re: GEC rod and water pipe

Here is an illustration from the 2002 NEC Handbook and while the handbook is no more an official interpretation than our own opinions this illustration IMO matches the requirements.

You can see that the GEC is only the conductor from the panel to the grounding electrode system, the rest are bonding jumpers.

This is a great thing, I had a 3000 amp service 300' from the water main. I could have run 300' of 3/0 CU from the service to the water main. Instead I ran 20' of 3/0 up the wall to building steel, then at the water service I ran 20' of 3/0 down the wall from building steel to the water main.

Obviously a major savings in copper but also labor.

physis I have to say that 250 is difficult but it is not imposable. Have you tried going through one full section at a time?

Bob

[ October 11, 2004, 04:32 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

GEC rod and water pipe

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