generac install

[fireryan]

Was doing a generac generator install today with a ATS. Was wondering what is the reason when you connect the circuits to the ATS sub panel that you want to put on generator power, why must you run each circuit neutral over to the ATS sub panel? Why not just leave the neutrals in the main panel? The ATS has a #4 neutral running to the main panel and neutrals are not switched in ATS

 

[ceb58]

Was doing a generac generator install today with a ATS. Was wondering what is the reason when you connect the circuits to the ATS sub panel that you want to put on generator power, why must you run each circuit neutral over to the ATS sub panel? Why not just leave the neutrals in the main panel? The ATS has a #4 neutral running to the main panel and neutrals are not switched in ATS

I suspect that the install instructions 110.3(B)directs you to run the grounded conductor with the ungrounded conductors. There are some other code articles such as 300.20 that addresses the subject.

 

[goldstar]

I don't have the code reference off hand but I believe that when you have a sub-panel (which is what the ATS is in this case) all neutrals have to originate from the panel each branch circuit is fed from.

 

[hillbilly1]

If this is the transfer switch/sub panel combo, you do not. The neutral that is supplied with the transfer switch is for connecting the neutral from the generator to the main panel. If you are installing one other than the one supplied by the manufacture, then yes.

 

[fireryan]

If this is the transfer switch/sub panel combo, you do not. The neutral that is supplied with the transfer switch is for connecting the neutral from the generator to the main panel. If you are installing one other than the one supplied by the manufacture, then yes.

This is the ATS/ sub panel combo. It comes with the pre wired whip and there is a neutral in the whip for each circuit and also a #4 neutral that is used for the main neutral. Just makes no sense to me to have to move all the circuit neutrals from the main panel over to the ATS

 

[hillbilly1]

Generac has changed that since I last installed them (which has been a while) Previously they just had the one neutral with all of the circuits from the subs breakers in one whip, wire was taken off the breaker in the panel and wire nutted to their wire. They may have changed this apparently due to a code change or something. If so, then the neutrals for the circuits will need to be intercepted too. It also could be due to inspectors and electricians not understanding how that would work too, just saves them a bunch of phone calls.

 

[Mgraw]

When I installed mine a few years ago the whip from the transfer switch had ungrounded and grounded conductors for each circuit. The instructions said using the grounded conductors was optional, just the #4 grounded conductor needed to be connected. Now the grounded conductors for each circuit must be used according to their instructions.

 

[ceb58]

Generac has changed that since I last installed them (which has been a while) Previously they just had the one neutral with all of the circuits from the subs breakers in one whip, wire was taken off the breaker in the panel and wire nutted to their wire. They may have changed this apparently due to a code change or something. If so, then the neutrals for the circuits will need to be intercepted too. It also could be due to inspectors and electricians not understanding how that would work too, just saves them a bunch of phone calls.

After looking around on a gen. forum I found the same topic. They changed the setup due to a code amendment for Florida and some other places.

When I installed mine a few years ago the whip from the transfer switch had ungrounded and grounded conductors for each circuit. The instructions said using the grounded conductors was optional, just the #4 grounded conductor needed to be connected. Now the grounded conductors for each circuit must be used according to their instructions.

There you go. If the mfg. instructions state that the grounded circ. must be used then you would violate 110.3 B if you did not

 

[goldstar]

If this is the transfer switch/sub panel combo, you do not. The neutral that is supplied with the transfer switch is for connecting the neutral from the generator to the main panel. If you are installing one other than the one supplied by the manufacture, then yes.

Let's not confuse this http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Reliance-Controls-31410CRK/p1136.html

with the transfer switch that comes pre-packaged with this

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/images.php?products_id=4785

In the case of the 10 circuit Reliance manual transfer switch, the branch circuits are being fed from (usually) the main circuit breaker panel. The fuses built into the Reliance manual xfer panel protect the circuits only when the switches are in the generator mode. In the case of the automatic xfer panel the branch circuits are being protected by that panel's circuit breakers in either case.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

 

[hillbilly1]

Let's not confuse this http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Reliance-Controls-31410CRK/p1136.html

with the transfer switch that comes pre-packaged with this

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/images.php?products_id=4785

In the case of the 10 circuit Reliance manual transfer switch, the branch circuits are being fed from (usually) the main circuit breaker panel. The fuses built into the Reliance manual xfer panel protect the circuits only when the switches are in the generator mode. In the case of the automatic xfer panel the branch circuits are being protected by that panel's circuit breakers in either case.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

I've seen and installed one of those before, the one I was meaning is using a standard load center fed seperately from a automatic transfer switch with the circuits ran into it, instead of the original panel.

 

[fireryan]

here is the unit im refering to
http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Generac-Guardian-5873-Standby-Generator/p4788.html

 

[Mgraw]

The instructions with that transfer switch says the both the grounded and ungrounded conductors "must" be connected.

 

[fireryan]

The instructions with that transfer switch says the both the grounded and ungrounded conductors "must" be connected.

But are they talking the individual grounded counductors or the #4 grounded conductor. My thought is the #4 would be sufficient enough. In the instructions I have it shows it done both ways

 

[goldstar]

But are they talking the individual grounded counductors or the #4 grounded conductor. My thought is the #4 would be sufficient enough. In the instructions I have it shows it done both ways

You have # 4 black, red and white wires inside the whip that's connected to the main breaker panel. The # 4 white neurtal supplies the neutral from the main breaker panel to the sub-panel/xfer switch. The black & red # 4' supply the 240 vac phase legs via an appropriately sized 2-pole breaker in the main panel and the green # 8 is the ground (obviously). Once you've connected those your sub-panel/xfer switch will now supply power to the branch circuits you choose. Once you choose the branch circuits the neutrals have to originate out of the sub-panel and that's why you have to splice in the whites on a per circuit basis.

 

[kwired]

Just wanted to add to the conversation: with AFCI reqirements you may need to run several neutrals anyway for the circuits in the generator panel in order for AFCI's to be properly connected. Same if you would happen to need a GFCI breaker.

 

[Mgraw]

But are they talking the individual grounded counductors or the #4 grounded conductor. My thought is the #4 would be sufficient enough. In the instructions I have it shows it done both ways

From the instruction manual. read the note.
12b. In the main panel, remove the black (hot) wire from
the circuit breaker that protects a circuit to be powered
in the event of a power failure. Wire nut the black wire
to the matching circuit lead wire from the emergency
circuit breaker in the load center in the transfer switch.
(All circuit wires are color coded and labeled for easy
identification). UL listed wire locknuts are included in
installation kit. Trace each black (hot) wire connected
and wire nut the white (neutral) wire from the same
Romex cable (circuit) to the matching circuit number
on the white (neutral) wire from the emergency load
center. Repeat for each circuit. Repeat this process
with the remaining circuits to be powered by the generator.
NOTE:
Both grounded and ungrounded conductors must be moved
to the emergency panel and connected to the new wiring
from the emergency panel using supplied wire nuts.

 

[fireryan]

If you go to appendix A on page 10, which is the set up I have. Go to step 10 and all I talks about is connecting the #4 neutral. Says nothing about individual grounded conductors. I agree if you have afci or gfci protection then the neutrals must be moved.