Generator as primary power source?

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fastline

Senior Member
Location
midwest usa
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Engineer
A friend is having to construct a tiny home, like 90sf, just to satisfy local codes about doing certain things on his own huge ag property. He is wanting to satisfy all loads with a small Honda generator. I can see very little wrong with this aside from the obvious maintenance, but this building seriously will never be used. It is just about making the code people shut up.

Can you guys see any code related issues here? I scanned the 2020 NEC and not much about generators until you get to 15kw. This would be a 3kw. I think the service and generator will need marked for emergency identification purposes. There is also an issue of the plug end rather than hard wired but I am pretty certain hardwire could be arranged if required.

Basically he is going to buy a small baseboard or similar electric heater to say it has heat. Not installed hot water because that is not required. Installing a light, and two GFI receptacles, one for "kitchen" and one for "bath". There is a well pump on the property and a smaller 1/2hp pump will be installed so it can run on the Honda for inspection.
 
Do houses require power? Amish houses don't have any.

Maybe wire it for a 12v solar panel charging a car battery? 12v lighting is easy to get. 12v outlets for car/RV accessory type appliances. Easy to charge a phone.
 
Oh believe me, that was the exact question on my mind. One code guy told me "you must connect to the grid".... But then I asked for the specific codes and it got quiet.

One matter to resolve is he will certainly have some level of electric and he doesn't want old eagle eyes saying "you have a light on so you have electric"......

The bigger issue is it freezes here so there will need to be a heat source. A little wood burner could probably be added but then you are dealing with a flue pipe, combustion makeup air, etc. I considered propane heat but that brings even more drama with fuel gas BS.

There is also a requirement of either having lighting or a window and he doesn't want the security issues of a window.
 
If if is a dwelling unit, you have to provide the load calculations for the tiny home, and I doubt that the calculation would permit a 3kW supply.
 
Ultimately I need to solve the equation. This is not like "nope, can't do it". This is more like "it must happen, but where do we find joy?" If propane needs to be introduced to limit loads, so be it but at that point, we might as well just install a couple solar panels and a small inverter and battery to serve the lighting needs, which are quite small.
 
Does it actually require heat? If there is no plumbing, there is nothing to freeze.

You could paint the exterior black and get solar heating.
 
Is this tiny house on wheels?

Maybe splitting hairs, but while the NEC says how to size the service entrance equipment it is pretty quiet about how to size the actual service. Make the install per the NEC, just don't ever call the POCO for a service drop.
 
You could use an RV heater. They are thermostatically controlled, run on propane, and require only 12v power. Just set it high enough to keep the pipes from freezing (assuming there are pipes).
 
Wow, this is just insane, I can't believe the nonsense that happens. Is this because some planning commission said "we need more housing"? I would advocate heavily for building this on a trailer platform, then when all the BS dies down, you/they can tow it away and sell it to someone who actually wants it. If it's on wheels then it can be designed as a mobile unit, small propane can for heat and cooking, small solar and battery for electricity, generator for backup. That's exactly what some people want, jump the hoops and end up with a valuable commodity instead of a giant paper weight.
 
I agree guys and I will have to discuss a mobile option but highly unlikely they will fly it. They seem to only want to allow "manufactured homes" which would be way bigger than what is required here. I am not sure, even being in the engineering biz, we could approve something as a "mobile home". We are in a county that wants a finger in your a$$ daily. I can tell you with confidence that everything will need to work and be tested to get signed off as a residence. Nothing else is going to happen on the property until this stupidity is over.

I can also tell you hot water and a heater capable of keeping the space at 68F is required. however, due to the small space, it will take next to nothing to heat and I run those calculations for a living.

I am not finding enough in code that gives me confidence with the generator approach. If we move to a little propane, I can get all I need in terms of energy for a cook top, water heater, and wall furnace thingy. maybe some appliances I can just return as defective....lol

Even the appraisers office said they don't even appraise stuff under 100sf so if course this will be 99sf.....lmao....

Another angle I am considering is light solar. A panel or two that we already have, a small inverter, a battery or two, and we have "power".... The issue they will probably raise is "what happens when the sun don't shine?" They are probably not smart enough to know real battery capacities so maybe I can snow them on that. Technically with a water pressure tank, we are storing up water in a pressure tank that can easily be used even with no power.
HOWEVER- I might ask you guys about "back up generators???" Technically if I can just add an inlet for a genny to a built in battery charger on an inverter, I am gold! Problem is I am not sure our locals like portable generators for this.
 
What a sad story. And people say things are bad in Cali! (They are though...)

Build it on skids bolted down. Then when they go away take out the bolts and drag that sucker up onto a trailer and gone. I guess you got to do whatever it takes... So sad...
 
It would be a local zoning ordinance.

I built a service a couple of years ago and the county wouldn’t allow anything larger than a 60A service on the lot. It was alongside a river where people park RV’s and tiny homes. BO said the service limit was there to try and limit each owner to a single RV or tiny home.


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fastline said:
A friend is having to construct a tiny home, like 90sf, just to satisfy local codes about doing certain things on his own huge ag property. He is wanting to satisfy all loads with a small Honda generator. I can see very little wrong with this aside from the obvious maintenance, but this building seriously will never be used. It is just about making the code people shut up.

Can you guys see any code related issues here? I scanned the 2020 NEC and not much about generators until you get to 15kw. This would be a 3kw. I think the service and generator will need marked for emergency identification purposes. There is also an issue of the plug end rather than hard wired but I am pretty certain hardwire could be arranged if required.

Basically he is going to buy a small baseboard or similar electric heater to say it has heat. Not installed hot water because that is not required. Installing a light, and two GFI receptacles, one for "kitchen" and one for "bath". There is a well pump on the property and a smaller 1/2hp pump will be installed so it can run on the Honda for inspection.
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This is your best bet for a portable generator. Anything above this will probably be just as prohibitive as a transfer switch is needed, attached to your principal electrical service entering the house.

Can you get any kind of battery backup? I'm assuming in this case that the electric is the gas pilot. Therefore, a small battery is not supposed to draw a great deal of power. I would contact the manufacturer and see if they could do so.

Gas or power? If it was gas, you should still be able to use it during the failure with a lighter light. If electrical, you need a rather large mobile generator, which is usually around 3,000 watts alone.
 
If it’s built on its own frame it’s not a structure. Local ordinances shouldn’t apply. May want to use your free consult with a lawyer to verify what state law says but not sure how anyone can regulate portable structures under building codes because it’s not a building. Maybe the farmer wants to build a really large well, lights, etc., for some cows in the middle of a pasture. How can he build a pole barn?? With power for shop tools? That might get converted...
 
paulengr said:
If it’s built on its own frame it’s not a structure. Local ordinances shouldn’t apply. May want to use your free consult with a lawyer to verify what state law says but not sure how anyone can regulate portable structures under building codes because it’s not a building. Maybe the farmer wants to build a really large well, lights, etc., for some cows in the middle of a pasture. How can he build a pole barn?? With power for shop tools? That might get converted...
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Maybe even a call to your governor would work to settle things down,
 
paulengr said:
If it’s built on its own frame it’s not a structure.
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electrofelon said:
I don't follow that reasoning at all.
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Sound like what they call here a portable non fixed structure, most are hauled in on the back of a flatbed trailer and rolled off, has floor framing built onto just like standard construction but no fixed foundation. Usually under a specified sq ft. As a non fixed structure it is not added into the taxable property for land taxes. Here usually why they frown on or even prohibit these to be developed into a micro residence and will zone in such a way to prevent it.
 
Fred B said:
Sound like what they call here a portable non fixed structure, most are hauled in on the back of a flatbed trailer and rolled off, has floor framing built onto just like standard construction but no fixed foundation. Usually under a specified sq ft. As a non fixed structure it is not added into the taxable property for land taxes. Here usually why they frown on or even prohibit these to be developed into a micro residence and will zone in such a way to prevent it.
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Yeah I would encourage checking the actual local laws. There is tons of misinformation out there about this, i.e. things like it's portable/moveable/not permanent/no foundation/ under xyz square feet so you can do whatever you want.
 
fastline said:
A friend is having to construct a tiny home, like 90sf, just to satisfy local codes about doing certain things on his own huge ag property. He is wanting to satisfy all loads with a small Honda generator. I can see very little wrong with this aside from the obvious maintenance, but this building seriously will never be used. It is just about making the code people shut up.
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Didn't we go round and round with this here before? Your "friend" has a building on his property zoned for Ag or commercial but a loophole would change that if he built a residence on the property which would lower taxes for the whole thing? (Or something like that.)

Yeah, that's why it will never be used...

-Hal
 
hbiss said:
Didn't we go round and round with this here before? Your "friend" has a building on his property zoned for Ag or commercial but a loophole would change that if he built a residence on the property which would lower taxes for the whole thing? (Or something like that.)

Yeah, that's why it will never be used...

-Hal
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That seems counterintuitive. Here in NJ, Ag property is taxed at a significantly lower rate. It sounds like there is some other use being anticipated for the property that requires a "residence" be there.
 
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