Generator Estimation????

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Mr. Timothy Curtis

Mr. Timothy Curtis

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In one of my recent trips to joe HOs house, I was asked to give a quote for installing a 15kv generator emergency system. I was one of those gener, (rymes with smack), ones that come with a 100a auto tran switch and a 12 space control panel. He purchased it from a big box store, and paid 2499.99 for it.
Now for a normal install I would charge around 1500.00 plus tax permit fees etc... in this case it would be around maybe 10 -15 ft from the main panel in the garage and require around 8-12 man hours for completion. Not real hard and a good profit paying job.

In his case it was 125' away, we would have to run conduit from the panel across his gar. under the house and around the corner. Not your run of the meal genetran setup. So I gave him a price of 2400.00 for install. 900 higher than if it was right next to the panel. Now I thought this was a fair price,
but I was beat (the HO says ) by 1k. Somebody lowballs me by a grand and is going to do the same work? How are these FBN companys making any profit??? I think Im just venting but how do you guys feel about it??

Was I fair or ex high, Ive done alot of these for around the same price and in diff zip codes so WTF...... Thank you:mad: :mad:
 
125' is a lot of wire and labor.

Watch for permits at the address ;) (if required in this neighborhood)
 
celtic said:
Watch for permits at the address ;) (if required in this neighborhood)
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Good advice, if you feel like squealing.

You can cut quite a bit of cost from a job if you do it in a non-compliant manner.
 
A thousand dollar(if not more) fine has an amazing way of leveling the playing field:cool:
 
The only thing I can figure other than a jackleg is the size of the outfit. I could do the job myself for a lot less than the company price, but wouldn't touch it for less than what you were asking. I have done enough those and they are frustrating EVERY time. I hate those 100 amp combo switches. I talked the salesman out of them if we are doing the labor. Monitor the permit if you so choose.
 
Here is a tip, strive to learn how to dissasociate yourself from your proposals on this type of work. Price em up high to begin with, and if the customer bites, then great. If somebody else comes in lower, just move on to the next job. Probably wouldn't work out too well in a town of 500, but for most places with traffic jams this is the true way to go. And if you are bidding on 15 million dollar projects and spend 3 months and lots of money in bidding, do not do like I have suggested above, instead, compete, compete, compete. Then change order.
 
I understand your frustration. Been there done that. I was wondering if you included start up for that price. Those models need to be run 4 hours on a progressive load for the break in procedure. And then there is the issue of running 2 conduits, power & control. I know they come in the same conduit on that model but I think when it is modified they need to be separated. And don't forget to change the fuel jet if needed. But in your situation every once in a while a real low price comes along from someone and you just need to forget it and move on. A normal adult person respects a contractors professionalism and behavior and understands the price that goes along with it. In general it's an underlying principal that if you act like a professional and CHARGE like one you must know what you are doing and will get it done right. ( I hope that's you :) )
About pricing, things take longer than you think except getting old. Somehow that comes real fast.
 
Bob Electrician

Bob Electrician

Mr. Timothy Curtis said:
In one of my recent trips to joe HOs house, I was asked to give a quote for installing a 15kv generator emergency system. I was one of those gener, (rymes with smack), ones that come with a 100a auto tran switch and a 12 space control panel. He purchased it from a big box store, and paid 2499.99 for it.
Now for a normal install I would charge around 1500.00 plus tax permit fees etc... in this case it would be around maybe 10 -15 ft from the main panel in the garage and require around 8-12 man hours for completion. Not real hard and a good profit paying job.

In his case it was 125' away, we would have to run conduit from the panel across his gar. under the house and around the corner. Not your run of the meal genetran setup. So I gave him a price of 2400.00 for install. 900 higher than if it was right next to the panel. Now I thought this was a fair price,
but I was beat (the HO says ) by 1k. Somebody lowballs me by a grand and is going to do the same work? How are these FBN companys making any profit??? I think Im just venting but how do you guys feel about it??

Was I fair or ex high, Ive done alot of these for around the same price and in diff zip codes so WTF...... Thank you:mad: :mad:
Click to expand...
Hey, You did the right thing to price that that way. First off, I'm a gener smack (like that name!) auth dealer and when someone buys the gen from a big box store you don't know what gorrillas have missed handled it and how long it's been sitting on the shelf. You might have got caught up in a liability thing if the eng or the generator didn't perform to spec. Also, the distance from generaor with auto trans pkg is max 35' dist from gen. Otherwise you run into a whole separate wiring that puts switch outside of engineered spec's and poss waranty voids. Also, volt/drops as well as com/module monitoring. Your in the black, your good that you got low balled on this one, believe me. Whoever does this job is going to be poor in more ways than one. I've picked up some additional maint contracts from others who installed rather less than code or mfg req's. And it's sweet profit for me but also, a learning exp for the cust not to by off the shelf from those big box retailers. And go cheap on the installation. Hope this helps take care Bob
 
Thanks All I thought I was in there as far as price went, also thanks for the warranty issue it brings it more into prospective for me .

Once again Thanks all.
TC:cool:
 
You were right on the $$ and I couldn't have put it better than Bill -J.

Most of these gensets come with a 30' whip between the disconnect and the generator. Many times you will have to add to the length of that depending on where the generator is located. The factory makes up these whips and installs 4 # 16 conductors in addition to the power feeds for voltage sensing and battery trickle charging. Do not attempt to re-make the entire whip yourself. From what I've been told by factory reps, these whips are made up where the # 16's are installed laying straight inside the Greenfield and not wrapped around the generator power conductors to avoid induction and damage to the electronics. Don't know whether this is true or not but I heeded the warnings. Also, the generator end of the whip comes equipped with a molex connector for these # 16's. You'll have to cut that connector off and re-splice it onto the new conductors that you install (I used 14/4MC). Make sure you leave a long enough whip on the end of the connector to make a splice inside the residence. There isn't much room in the connection box used on the outside of the house. I'm not sure you would be voiding a warranties. In many cases you don't have a choice but to extend the circuits but I would check with the factory anyway.
 
Hey thanks Goldstar. Actually I am an authorized dealer / installer / service person. That model can be bought with or without the breaker combo type transfer switch. With the included transfer switch with breakers & conduit it is a " Listed " assembly. If you need to extend the run, you may run the 30' of included conduit to a j-box then separate control from power and continue on to transfer switch. Check your voltage drop / distance. Or discard the 30' length and run your conductors as you would acording to NEC code etc. remembering to separate control & power all the way. If bought without the [ branch circuit breaker type ]transfer switch & conduit, you would need to purchase a standard type transfer switch and again wire acording to industry standards. In this area at least, as long as wire is sized properly and installed as above I see no warranty problem as such.
Problems arise from actually installing it wrong, making wrong termination connections, basically frying something or it operates erratically because the control wires are landed wrong. Or during install something gets bumped or tweeked. Not changing the jet to the appropriate fuel is a big one. Any other dealers see a problem with this? Of course parts never fail or break. :roll:
 
Just curious, what happens if you don't change the jet from LP to NG or vice versa ? Is it a fire hazard or does the generator just not fire properly ? I usually order the generator set for the type fuel present so it comes shipped to the job ready to go.
 
Good question about the fire thing. They always come ready for NG. If propane is used a smaller jet is installed. ( propane has more btu's so a smaller jet ). I went on a warranty call that said smoke came out of the transfer switch and now it won't transfer over to standby. Whoever installed it didn't put in the propane jet so it was running very rich. RPM's were about2000 unstead of 3600. It started and ran but the voltage was really low. ( RPM corelates to voltage output ). When it tried to transfer over to standby the coil just burned and smoked. Not enough voltage to transfer ( electrically activated, mechanically held ) Coil starts it over top and springs slam it in. The enclosure contained it but none the less you did have fire. Well sort of, you know what I mean.
As far as the engine it just runs crappy or not at all if it's jetted wrong. ( depending on elevation, sea level or 6000 ft. ) Should be caught instanly by installer who then gives himself 40 lashes for forgetting.
I haven't had any instance of someone going to the trouble of installing the jet for propane when they are on NG. Hope that helps.
 
Thanks Bill. Great info. I usually don't connect the fuel lines anyway. That doesn't fall under my realm of expertise. I leave that up to the plumber but, it's good to know what might happen.

Regards,

Phil,
Gold Star Electric
New Jersey
 
My last 15kW (B&S) was $2700 including permit, miss utility, PoCo and startup. It was a 60 ft conduit run. Seems you are in the ballpark.

Mark
 
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