Generator Panel Question.

[aejanis]

I am having a generator and transfer switch installed in my home and have a question. 240/120 Single Phase.

I understand that Neutral and Ground are only to be bonded together at the main panel. I am all conduit here, and "ground" is tied to the conduit via the main panel chassis. The generator does not bond neutral and ground, it is Non-SDS.

In the "subpanel" that will be connected to the transfer switch there will be 2 hots and a neutral coming from the Transfer switch. Would it be correct to remove the bond between the left and right neutral bars. Tie all my load neutrals to the bar with the neutral running back to the transfer switch. Bond the "ground" bar ONLY to the subpanel with the bonding screw, and connect the ground bar back to the main panel ground.

That is what I am understanding as correct...or is the conduit "network" connection between the main panel and subpanel enough to cover the ground requirement?

[ July 31, 2005, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: aejanis ]

 

[redfish]

Re: Generator Panel Question.

You should hire an electrical contractor. DIYs aren't going to find much help here.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Generator Panel Question.

Sorry but DIY are not given help here.It would put this site at risk to do so.Please just hire an electrician.
A moderator will be by shortly to close this post

[ July 31, 2005, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[aejanis]

Re: Generator Panel Question.

Well...the truth is that I typed up an very very large post, and my net connection dropped and I lost the entire post. I had a 6 paragraph description of how the wires are connected now, and why I felt there needed to be a ground tied back to main panel from the subpanel.

I *DO* have an electrical contractor and we are in disagreement about the way the ground should be connected. I was pressed for time and didn't feel like typing the entire post again. I have the final inspection tomorrow and want to have ammo if the grounding is not right. The elec contractor is telling me that there is no need to have a ground conductor from the subpanel to the main panel, and that the conduit will handle the ground..the inspector agrees also, I don't.

When the inspector was here last week (looking at the rough) he agreed with the elecitian, but I don't think that it is correct.

I will admit however, that about 2 months ago it was supposed to be a DIY project, but I found myself not finding the time and hired a contractor to do the work. All I did was lay down the concrete slab that the generator is sitting on, and the slab passed the inspection with flying colors as well.

The only DIY aspect was that I purchased everythign and brought it here...

[ July 31, 2005, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: aejanis ]

 

[shockme77]

Re: Generator Panel Question.

Good God! Even the wording in that question had my head spinning. Definitely hire an electrican, this way you'll know it was done right to code and you'll sleep safer at night knowing it was wired correctly.

 

[aejanis]

Re: Generator Panel Question.

I guess I will just re-type the post in the full detail that I lost earlier today. The post I lost was much easier to understand.

If I don't get the answer to my questions here I guess I will just call the Village and ask for another inspector to be assigned to the permit if I can't get a good argument out of the guy that has been inspecting it to this point for why I don't need a ground.

[ July 31, 2005, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: aejanis ]

 

[aejanis]

Re: Generator Panel Question.

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Sorry but DIY are not given help here.It would put this site at risk to do so.Please just hire an electrician.
A moderator will be by shortly to close this post

So what happens when a DIYer comes here and finds the answer he/she is looking for without asking? Seems the entire forum would create risk then, now wouldn't it.

I just feel that the pro that I am paying (the same guy that did all the electical work for the builder of my home and the 218 in my neighborhood), and the inspector (that inspected most of the homes in my neighborhood) might be wrong. My first post did come off like a DIY post, but I assure you I just am wanting to make sure it is being done right, and inspected and approved to be right.

Worst case I will just pay someone else to look it over if this forum feels "at risk".

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Generator Panel Question.

You brought up an interesting fact.Yes you might find the help you wanted here without us telling you anything.Perhaps its time that Mikes staff finds a way to keep non electricians out of here.
Seems you don't want the inspectors or your electricians help as you already think your right.If i was your electrician i would have suggested a place for you to go and walked off.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: Generator Panel Question.

What type of conduit are we talking about??

 

[growler]

Re: Generator Panel Question.

So you have an experienced contractor and an experienced inspector that have seen the work and discussed it, who both came to the same conclusion, that the work was correct and up to code. You have a different opinion and wish to find clarification on a forum. Do you really think that you could trust the opinions of a group of people that you know nothing about, that you have never met, without the verification of credentials. You were able to post a question and you are free to give opinions on the forum even if your advice is based on little actual knowledge of the subject matter( someone could give poor advice with the best of intentsions). How would you like it if some poor DIY was dependent on you for advice, then use that advice with fatal consequences. The advice given on a professional forum is meant to be used by those with the knowledge & experience to tell truth from fiction. I would never take advice given by strangers without some hard evidence. That said, article 250 of the NEC has everything you will need to know about grounding.

 

[aejanis]

Re: Generator Panel Question.

Originally posted by luke warmwater:
What type of conduit are we talking about??

EMT

 

[aejanis]

Re: Generator Panel Question.

Originally posted by growler:
So you have an experienced contractor and an experienced inspector that have seen the work and discussed it, who both came to the same conclusion, that the work was correct and up to code. You have a different opinion and wish to find clarification on a forum. Do you really think that you could trust the opinions of a group of people that you know nothing about, that you have never met, without the verification of credentials. You were able to post a question and you are free to give opinions on the forum even if your advice is based on little actual knowledge of the subject matter( someone could give poor advice with the best of intentsions). How would you like it if some poor DIY was dependent on you for advice, then use that advice with fatal consequences. The advice given on a professional forum is meant to be used by those with the knowledge & experience to tell truth from fiction. I would never take advice given by strangers without some hard evidence. That said, article 250 of the NEC has everything you will need to know about grounding.

I also have an experianced contractor that I use at my Chicago highrise that says that there should be a ground wire between the sub-panel and the mainpanel...but that is Chicago, where regardless of EMT pipe they run a ground conductor on every outlet. I am in the burbs, and he only works the city. So I don't know if his view is based on the over and above Chicago codes, or NEC (he is on my todo list to call tomorrow so I can get his basis for his reasoning).

I am looking for someone that knows the code (even if they are a stranger) that can give me the same story as the inspector and contractor that have worked together on hundreds of homes and both could not understand, or have an understanding to agree because they do so much work together. There are 2 inspectors in the City, and the contractor I am using is a sub for 3 major home builders in the city I live in. I am sure that inspectors tend to side with the contractor when they know there work because they have been inspecting it for years. Just because an inspector approves something as right does not make it right.....which would explain why my home passed final inspection, and was granted a certificate of occupancy without ANY insulation in the attic! If I can't trust the builder to put insulation into an attic, and the inspector to catch the mistake...why should I also trust the electical contractor that won't show me proof (or the inspector) behind their reasoning. I know that this is covered in section 250, that is what the contractor and inspector have told me...but I have not seen it with my own eyes to investigate it on my own. Unlike the fact that i know code says there should be R-38 insulation in the attic, I don't know what 250 says....people here do.

Guess I will just spend 100 bills for a copy of the code. Small price to pay to make sure there is "insulation in the attic" (if you will).

[ July 31, 2005, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: aejanis ]

 

[aejanis]

Re: Generator Panel Question.

Originally posted by jimwalker:

Seems you don't want the inspectors or your electricians help as you already think your right.If i was your electrician i would have suggested a place for you to go and walked off.

This site is LITERED with people saying that "this inspectors need to go back to school"...or "guess what a mess I found on this job I just visited, can't believe it past an inspection". This site (to me) proves that even pros and inspectors can be wrong...they are human after all. I could be wrong too, but I don't have the NEC in my hands to prove it either way.

"I have never made a mistake....I thought I did once, but I was wrong." sounds like a perfect slogan for you.

[ July 31, 2005, 10:35 PM: Message edited by: aejanis ]

 

[growler]

Re: Generator Panel Question.

The insulation in the attic was probably missed because the inspector didn't even look in the attic. Happens all the time but not because there is something going on. Inspectors have a heavy work load and they miss things. But you stated that this problem was brought to the inspectors attention ( he saw it ). You are right that often inspectors will give a free pass to contractors that they know on some inspections ( to save time ). But they don't give free passes on things that can come back on them. If this is a local code issue then you should have stated the area ( rules often change from one street to the next, you end up in another jurisdiction ). The only way that you are going to get the answers that you seek is at the local level. Call the inspectors boss, everyone has a boss. All you could get on the forum is another opinion, You already have two, so how will you decide which one is correct. The AHJ has the final say and that is who you are arguing with.

 

[aejanis]

Re: Generator Panel Question.

FWIW...my contractor working the generator is the same one that while installing all the electrical in my home tied the hotwater pipe to ground, without a strap over the hotwater heater.

My justification for hiring this guy is that it would preserve my 2 year electrical warranty, vs the planned DIY or hiring someone else to do the work. I figured if I was going to hire and not DIY might as well preserve my warranty...even though there was a hit to his record with the incorrect waterpipe tie-down...which the inspector also missed. It was fixed by moving the ground tie to the cold water pipe within 5 minutes of my call to the builder to report the problem.

[ July 31, 2005, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: aejanis ]

 

[paul]

Re: Generator Panel Question.

Originally posted by aejanis:
In the "subpanel" that will be connected to the transfer switch there will be 2 hots and a neutral coming from the Transfer switch. Would it be correct to remove the bond between the left and right neutral bars. Tie all my load neutrals to the bar with the neutral running back to the transfer switch. Bond the "ground" bar ONLY to the subpanel with the bonding screw, and connect the ground bar back to the main panel ground.

That is what I am understanding as correct...or is the conduit "network" connection between the main panel and subpanel enough to cover the ground requirement?

Either way will pass code and give you a good ground fault path. You do not need a grounding conductor when EMT is piped correctly between the panels. Although I wouldn't remove the tie bar between neutral bars on a panel. I'd just purchase the ground bar kit and install that, instead.

But really, have no fear, it sounds like your contractor installed it correctly.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: Generator Panel Question.

Do you fall under the NEC or the CEC?

I don't know the CEC, so I don't know if there are differences in the application.

I think it is within the forum rules to discuss your question as I don't see it as a DIY How-to question. If I'm wrong, that's the moderators' decision.

In the NEC, for example, 250.118(4) allows Electrical Metallic Tubing to be used as an Equipment Grounding Conductor.

As far as seperating the 'neutrals' and 'grounds' in the 'subpanel', lets look at what 250.24(A)(5) has to say.

 

[luke warmwater]

Re: Generator Panel Question.

Wow! Some action while I was typing. I started at 10:40, but my kids will Not go to sleep.

BTW, what brand of generator?

 

[aejanis]

Re: Generator Panel Question.

Originally posted by luke warmwater:

BTW, what brand of generator?

Generac 4675. Went with the 4678 TS (vs the load center/ts combo) so I could have more options with the loads that were moved to the generator panel.

 

[aejanis]

Re: Generator Panel Question.

Originally posted by luke warmwater:
Do you fall under the NEC or the CEC?


I think it is within the forum rules to discuss your question as I don't see it as a DIY How-to question. If I'm wrong, that's the moderators' decision.

In the NEC, for example, 250.118(4) allows Electrical Metallic Tubing to be used as an Equipment Grounding Conductor.

Thanks, that is all I needed to know. My basis for concern was based on the contractor that I use to do electrical work in my datacenter in a Chicago highrise (my office). I have worked with him for about 6 years and trust him. He said that there should be a ground wire between the panels, so I questioned my contractor and the inspector...(but I know that Chicago code is more firm with stuff)...my problem was that they basically refused to discuss it with me when I brought it up.

According to the local inspector all they follow NEC, and the basic additions are EMT everywhere, and BX tails less then 6ft.