I am in need of some solid advice on when a fire pump needs to be backed up by a stand by (optional) generator. If you have a customer that wants certian loads to stay on during prolonged power outages such as a hurricane, do you need to back up the fire pump? It could be considered life safety even though the generator is optional. Any thoughts?
Generators & Fire Pumps
- Thread starter PDCO
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jtester
Senior Member
- Location
- Las Cruces N.M.
I am not sure I understand the idea of optional with the generator. If there are extended outages and a generator is needed to maintain operation, it is not optional.
NEC 695.3 discusses power sources for fire pumps.
Annex A of NFPA 20 is purported to give the AHJ guidance in determining whether a source is reliable or not. Determining reliability is the responsibility of the AHJ not us.
Jim T
NEC 695.3 discusses power sources for fire pumps.
Annex A of NFPA 20 is purported to give the AHJ guidance in determining whether a source is reliable or not. Determining reliability is the responsibility of the AHJ not us.
Jim T
Optional and Stand-by
Optional and Stand-by
There are some fairly clear definitions of Optional and Required for generators. It comes down to equipment needed for life safety. Clearly keeping product cold is not life safety, the generator is to perserve product for the customer. The problem is when an fire pump is added the AHJ can deem it as life safety. I am not sure I agree in all instances.
Optional and Stand-by
There are some fairly clear definitions of Optional and Required for generators. It comes down to equipment needed for life safety. Clearly keeping product cold is not life safety, the generator is to perserve product for the customer. The problem is when an fire pump is added the AHJ can deem it as life safety. I am not sure I agree in all instances.
jtester
Senior Member
- Location
- Las Cruces N.M.
I don't think many fire pumps are optional. If you read the NEC section and the Appendix, you'll be able to understand when a generator is likely to be needed. None of those instances are optional.
Jim T
Jim T
Design Electric Inc.
Member
- Location
- Near Tampa Florida
jtester said:
I am not aware of any AHJ that has determined the local utility is not reliable.
Thus 695.3(A)(1) should apply in this case.( unless, of course the facility has an " On Site Production Facility".
sandsnow
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern California
Our (CA) bldg code will call for the Fire Pump to be backed by a genset if it is a high rise bldg.
Other than that I have only seen one other Fire Pump required for other than High Rise and that was a diesel pump.
Thanks for the tip on Annex A in NFPA 20, never heard of that. Gotta read it.
Other than that I have only seen one other Fire Pump required for other than High Rise and that was a diesel pump.
Thanks for the tip on Annex A in NFPA 20, never heard of that. Gotta read it.
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
- Occupation
- Master Electrician
I have a fire pump station with a 1500 gpm electric and 1500 gpm diesel. The AHJ considers this to be a 3000 gpm supply as he feels the electrical system does not have many outages. Its up to the AHJ to make the call, and in this case thats the fire marshall.
Having a generator run a fire pump is an expensive proposition, as its a "red" generator and "red" transfer switch. It may be more cost effective to have a diesel fire pump.
Well the best is a gravity storage system. Gravity hasn't failed yet. We can't have a elevated reservoir in this location as its too close to an airport and the reservoir would be about 130 ft high...
Having a generator run a fire pump is an expensive proposition, as its a "red" generator and "red" transfer switch. It may be more cost effective to have a diesel fire pump.
Well the best is a gravity storage system. Gravity hasn't failed yet. We can't have a elevated reservoir in this location as its too close to an airport and the reservoir would be about 130 ft high...
Only you're AHJ can decide if the pump needs to be on a generator or not. In my experience, most of the time AHJ's consider the utility reliable.
However, if you have something like a nursing home for example, and you want to operate it "business as usual" off the generator for a week while the power is out, then I think that might make all the difference in the world. The difference is that during this time that the power is out, the fire pump would have no source of power.
Steve
However, if you have something like a nursing home for example, and you want to operate it "business as usual" off the generator for a week while the power is out, then I think that might make all the difference in the world. The difference is that during this time that the power is out, the fire pump would have no source of power.
Steve
Design Electric Inc.
Member
- Location
- Near Tampa Florida
New Fla Requirements
New Fla Requirements
Florida just passed house bill 7121 requiring an alternate power sorce for elevators, common area lighting and Fire Alarm Panels for facilities over 75ft in height. The bill REQUIRES the installation to be per Art. 700.
Many of the high rises as well as the AHJ are asking for genset be sized for both the required loads as well as their Fire Pumps. And if so,fire pumps, unless required by the AHJ would fall under Art. 702.
Now, fortunatly 700,701 and 702 loads are permitted to be supplied concurrently from the same alternate power sorce: thus the sizing of one adequte generator (sized per what ever article is mandatory and it's required loads) is suficient.
DO I believe in the Art. 700 requirments to be justified: NO..
Why: the tapping of unfused utility power conductors that are required.
For a stand alone fire pump perhaps I can concure.
Now, we are required by Fla law to have a Xfer switch's normal power terminations not be protected by a OCD per statue.
Yes, Art. 700 is adiment in identifying and labeling equipment for this purpose for maintenance personal, however, in my 30 yrs +, most facility maintenance personal are general maintenance personal that unfortunatly are not qualified nor educated to this degree to understand that there is still harmfull current available even when they turn off the facilities main disconnect.
New Fla Requirements
Bea said:
Florida just passed house bill 7121 requiring an alternate power sorce for elevators, common area lighting and Fire Alarm Panels for facilities over 75ft in height. The bill REQUIRES the installation to be per Art. 700.
Many of the high rises as well as the AHJ are asking for genset be sized for both the required loads as well as their Fire Pumps. And if so,fire pumps, unless required by the AHJ would fall under Art. 702.
Now, fortunatly 700,701 and 702 loads are permitted to be supplied concurrently from the same alternate power sorce: thus the sizing of one adequte generator (sized per what ever article is mandatory and it's required loads) is suficient.
DO I believe in the Art. 700 requirments to be justified: NO..
Why: the tapping of unfused utility power conductors that are required.
For a stand alone fire pump perhaps I can concure.
Now, we are required by Fla law to have a Xfer switch's normal power terminations not be protected by a OCD per statue.
Yes, Art. 700 is adiment in identifying and labeling equipment for this purpose for maintenance personal, however, in my 30 yrs +, most facility maintenance personal are general maintenance personal that unfortunatly are not qualified nor educated to this degree to understand that there is still harmfull current available even when they turn off the facilities main disconnect.
Design Electric Inc.
Member
- Location
- Near Tampa Florida
Fla's new requirements
Fla's new requirements
Florida just passed house bill 7121 requiring an alternate power sorce for elevators, common area lighting and Fire Alarm Panels for facilities over 75ft in height. The bill REQUIRES the installation to be per Art. 700.
Many of the high rises as well as the AHJ are asking for genset be sized for both the required loads as well as their Fire Pumps. And if so,fire pumps, unless required by the AHJ would fall under Art. 702.
Now, fortunatly 700,701 and 702 loads are permitted to be supplied concurrently from the same alternate power sorce: thus the sizing of one adequte generator (sized per what ever article is mandatory and it's required loads) is suficient.
DO I believe in the Art. 700 requirments to be justified: NO..
Why: the tapping of unfused utility power conductors that are required.
For a stand alone fire pump perhaps I can concure.
Now, we are required by Fla law to have a Xfer switch's normal power terminations not be protected by a OCD per statue.
Yes, Art. 700 is adiment in identifying and labeling equipment for this purpose for maintenance personal, however, in my 30 yrs +, most facility maintenance personal are general maintenance personal that unfortunatly are not qualified nor educated to this degree to understand that there is still harmfull current available even when they turn off the facilities main disconnect.
Fla's new requirements
Florida just passed house bill 7121 requiring an alternate power sorce for elevators, common area lighting and Fire Alarm Panels for facilities over 75ft in height. The bill REQUIRES the installation to be per Art. 700.
Many of the high rises as well as the AHJ are asking for genset be sized for both the required loads as well as their Fire Pumps. And if so,fire pumps, unless required by the AHJ would fall under Art. 702.
Now, fortunatly 700,701 and 702 loads are permitted to be supplied concurrently from the same alternate power sorce: thus the sizing of one adequte generator (sized per what ever article is mandatory and it's required loads) is suficient.
DO I believe in the Art. 700 requirments to be justified: NO..
Why: the tapping of unfused utility power conductors that are required.
For a stand alone fire pump perhaps I can concure.
Now, we are required by Fla law to have a Xfer switch's normal power terminations not be protected by a OCD per statue.
Yes, Art. 700 is adiment in identifying and labeling equipment for this purpose for maintenance personal, however, in my 30 yrs +, most facility maintenance personal are general maintenance personal that unfortunatly are not qualified nor educated to this degree to understand that there is still harmfull current available even when they turn off the facilities main disconnect.
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