Generic Help Question

[tallgirl]

So, as many of y'all have either been told or figured out, I work with electricians on volunteer projects (Habitat for Humanity type things) after having learned a fair amount of the electrical code and residential wiring technique as a child growing up with general contactors for parents and wiring our own homes and other such fun things. I can't think of anything I haven't wired that's on the load side of a meter.

For the past 10 months I've been volunteering in New Orleans, again, working with electricians. I was raised there and don't expect I'll stop volunteering there any time soon. I have about 200 hours of volunteer electrical work there in the past year, and hundreds of hours in decades gone bye on a wide assortment of volunteer residential rehabilitation or new construction jobs.

I can't afford to quit my day job, but I'm at a point where I want to start working on whatever someone who's trying to become a residential journeypeep is expected to have. I can and have worked fairly unsupervised in the past, having an electrician come behind me and check my work. My work passes inspections nicely, so I'm not in need of classes on how to wire an outlet or staple Romex to a stud. I know when I need to ask questions, and I know the difference between "good" wiring and "bad" wiring.

Longer term, I've been considering getting out of IT if I'm not outsourced to India or China first.

Where do I go from here?

 

[George Stolz]

Thanks for the bio - genuinely - it's nice to know more about people here, especially with odd profiles such as yourself.

What exactly are you asking? I'm seeing it a couple different ways...?

 

[tallgirl]

Thanks for the bio - genuinely - it's nice to know more about people here, especially with odd profiles such as yourself.

What exactly are you asking? I'm seeing it a couple different ways...?

I'm having a hard time putting it into words without it coming out too wordy.

The short and sweet is that I've never concerned myself with credentials because volunteer groups don't require them of volunteers, other than that the trades that require licenses have someone with one. But I'm starting to think of this as more than a casual volunteer thing and that if I started being more serious about it I could turn it into a second career. I've been thinking about moving back to New Orleans in a few years when the kid starts college and this would be something I could definitely do in New Orleans until I'm really old and gray. Every time I swear I'm done sleeping on cots in houses with no permanent walls (and rats -- let's don't forget the rats), I plan to go back and do it all over again.

I know about the thousands and thousands of hours requirements. That's the hard part given that I've got a day job already, but if IT gets any worse than it is already, putting the hours in could suddenly become very easy, and it pays better than "Fries with that?". What can I do to make the hours of work, study, etc. I'm putting in right now as a volunteer put me in a better position should I decide to tell the IT biz to take a hike?

What advice would you have for someone who's trying to change careers into this field who can't just up and quit the job that pays the bills? I guess that's the best way to sum it up.

I can write more. But I'm trying to cut down

 

[al hildenbrand]

Ultimately, getting the permission to take the test is the hard part.

Pick the jurisdiction that you want to license in, and talk to the folks that evaluate the applications to take the test.

There may be some avenue by which you can get some credit for what you already have under your belt. . .its not likely, but possible. You won't know until you ask.

 

[tallgirl]

Ultimately, getting the permission to take the test is the hard part.

Pick the jurisdiction that you want to license in, and talk to the folks that evaluate the applications to take the test.

There may be some avenue by which you can get some credit for what you already have under your belt. . .its not likely, but possible. You won't know until you ask.

Texas and Louisiana currently have a reciprocity agreement, so I'd pick the jurisdiction that will be the easiest. And for those of y'all in states where there's no so much work, Louisiana may accept just about any license. Very early -- December and January -- on I was working with electricians from MA and NY a lot. The city hadn't been opened that long and a lot of residents were scattered all over the place still.

I also have a contact here in town who seems willing to work with me. He's an EC who works for a local charity and his suggestion was to start tracking the hours I work and who I work for. I have to get ahold of the EC for the big project I worked earlier this year and see what kind of documentation I can get for that work.

Thanks for the info -- very much appreciated.

 

[RayS]

I also have a contact here in town who seems willing to work with me. He's an EC who works for a local charity and his suggestion was to start tracking the hours I work and who I work for.

Nice efforts on the volunteer side, tallgirl. I'd try to document your prior experiences (volunteer and with the family biz) also so you can come up with more of the requisite experience. This will help 2 ways, for the potential licensing, and also if you do sign on with an electrical outfit for a better rate.

Nice thing about electric work is it can't be outsourced!

 

[jeff43222]

Nice thing about electric work is it can't be outsourced!

I used to think that, too. Then I saw all the GCs and handymen advertising their electrical services, even though it's against the law. Just because the work can't be sent to another country doesn't mean it can't be outsourced.

 

[paul32]

Tallgirl,
This is the first I've seen you say you weren't an electrician. Of course you'll have to see what your state(s) requirements are to know how to proceed. What you are doing wouldn't fly in Minnesota. An unlicensed person doing work under the direct supervision of a licensed journeyman or master must be employed by the same company as the licensed worker. I also do volunteer electrical work for Habitat for Humanity, but I'm a licensed master electrician and contractor. It is good you can do what you are doing there (you sound qualified) and it is amazing how much is left to do there a year later.

 

[tallgirl]

Tallgirl,
This is the first I've seen you say you weren't an electrician. Of course you'll have to see what your state(s) requirements are to know how to proceed.

8,000 hours in the trade or education, sit for the test, pass. That's the Texas requirements for Journeypeep. It's 12,000 for Master electrician. If there's anyone here from Texas, knowing what "education" counts towards Journeypeep would be useful.

What you are doing wouldn't fly in Minnesota. An unlicensed person doing work under the direct supervision of a licensed journeyman or master must be employed by the same company as the licensed worker. I also do volunteer electrical work for Habitat for Humanity, but I'm a licensed master electrician and contractor. It is good you can do what you are doing there (you sound qualified) and it is amazing how much is left to do there a year later.

How do y'all handle electrical work with Habitat? My understanding of all charitable / volunteer projects is that the rules are different because no one is "employed". I've always had a sign a waiver saying that if I fall down and break my fool head that I'm out of luck. With an employer, if I fall down and break my fool head, I collect workers comp. Do you pay your workers to volunteer? They volunteer on their own? No one helps you? I'm really curious because sometimes laws hurt groups that don't need being hurt.

As for "qualified", I'm a quick study and I fake it well

And as for the amount of work to do there, wow. There are entire parts of the city where the weeds are shoulder high and no one lives there at all, period. Where I volunteer -- the Lower 9th -- the level of destruction is so high that it makes it easier to start rebuilding. When "what was there" is completely gone, it's just a matter of getting a Bobcat in, clearing the space for form boards for a new chain wall, and getting down the business.

 

[hockeyoligist2]

In SC, a Journeyman Electrician requires four years in the trade and requires documentation of two years prior work experience under a licensed Electrician. Since you have been working under the supervision of a licensed Electrician (even without pay) the time may count. I had to get a letter from my boss, master EC, before I took the test. So the EC you have been working under might can help you. Good Luck!

 

[paul32]

How do y'all handle electrical work with Habitat? My understanding of all charitable / volunteer projects is that the rules are different because no one is "employed". I've always had a sign a waiver saying that if I fall down and break my fool head that I'm out of luck. With an employer, if I fall down and break my fool head, I collect workers comp. Do you pay your workers to volunteer? They volunteer on their own? No one helps you? I'm really curious because sometimes laws hurt groups that don't need being hurt.

No one helps me, and I have no employees. Habitat is just another customer, but they get a really good deal.

 

[busman]

In Virginia, an Engineering Degree from an accredited 4 year program reduces the work experience requirement to 1 year for journeyman. Don't know if it is similar in LA.

Mark

 

[jeff43222]

8,000 hours in the trade or education, sit for the test, pass. That's the Texas requirements for Journeypeep. It's 12,000 for Master electrician. If there's anyone here from Texas, knowing what "education" counts towards Journeypeep would be useful.

I'm not from Texas, but I have changed planes there a couple of times. I poked around and found this information on the Texas Website. Doesn't look like they accept anything other than OJT to qualify.

How do y'all handle electrical work with Habitat? My understanding of all charitable / volunteer projects is that the rules are different because no one is "employed".

Maybe that's how it works there, but not up here. It doesn't matter if the customer is a charity. Volunteers can't do electrical work; only employees of an EC can. They also have to be either licensed as at least a journeyman or be under the supervision of someone with such a license. The licensed person can only supervise two people, so you can't have one journeyman and 20 apprentices.

Theoretically, the new owner of the house could pull the permit and do the work, but no one would be allowed to help. As an EC, I can only do work under a permit that I pull myself.

As for "qualified", I'm a quick study and I fake it well

Unfortunately, that generally won't cut it with the bureaucrats.

 

[jeff43222]

In Virginia, an Engineering Degree from an accredited 4 year program reduces the work experience requirement to 1 year for journeyman. Don't know if it is similar in LA.

Mark

There are a few states with similar rules. Nebraska, the Dakotas, and Minnesota let someone with a BSEE sit for the master exam. Colorado's application form says a BSEE + 1 year of experience is good enough to sit for their master exam. Arkansas says BSEE + 1 or 2 years of experience (information on the Web site is inconsistent) is good enough to sit for their master exam. NYC requires 3.5 years of experience with a BSEE for their master exam, and Wisconsin allows up to 3 years of credit (toward the total of 7 years) for electrical schooling.

 

[mpross]

BSEE + experience

BSEE + experience

Wow.

I have never heard of someone having a BSEE and also a year of experience setting for a master's license. That notion sounds like a bad idea for a graduate from my university! In our EE program, we learn nothing about building wiring, that is left to the Construction Engineering Dept.

As a journeyman spark, I feel that the knowledge I obtained on the job, through some very smart, and also some very stupid electricians, is irreplacible. There is nothing like the hands-on when it comes to the commercial/industrial trades.

I am interested to hear other opinions on this. Maybe I should start a new thread. I guess it makes sense if people are doing this so they can be a contractor, or something like that.

MP

 

[tallgirl]

I'm not from Texas, but I have changed planes there a couple of times. I poked around and found this information on the Texas Website. Doesn't look like they accept anything other than OJT to qualify.

There's more if you dig into the statutes. The 8,000 hours is in addition to 576 hours of education. Without the education the requirement is 12,000 hours.

They also have to be either licensed as at least a journeyman or be under the supervision of someone with such a license. The licensed person can only supervise two people, so you can't have one journeyman and 20 apprentices.

If you've spent much time with those groups you know that they often wind up with people divided into two groups -- people who can't hold a paintbrush and people who could build a house from scratch. That's an exaggeration, of course. Some skills, like (properly) taping and floating drywall, are scarce. Other skills, like framing carpentry, are more common. Electrical is one of the most scarce skills and only twice have I worked with someone else, in addition to the electrician who was supervising us. Of all the trades, only HVAC is more scarce.

 

[jeff43222]

Wow.

I have never heard of someone having a BSEE and also a year of experience setting for a master's license. That notion sounds like a bad idea for a graduate from my university! In our EE program, we learn nothing about building wiring, that is left to the Construction Engineering Dept.

As a journeyman spark, I feel that the knowledge I obtained on the job, through some very smart, and also some very stupid electricians, is irreplacible. There is nothing like the hands-on when it comes to the commercial/industrial trades.

I am interested to hear other opinions on this. Maybe I should start a new thread. I guess it makes sense if people are doing this so they can be a contractor, or something like that.

MP

In Nebraska, Minnesota, and the Dakotas, you don't need any experience at all. If you have a BSEE from an accredited school, you are considered qualified to take the master exam. Someone at the state once told me that these people generally get the lowest scores on the exam. The curriculum in an EE program has almost nothing do to with what is covered on the exam.

I'm not sure why they allow such people to take the exam, passing which entitles the person to pick up tools and do electrical work. But it doesn't seem to be a problem. I bet few electricians got their licenses that way.

 

[tallgirl]

In Nebraska, Minnesota, and the Dakotas, you don't need any experience at all. If you have a BSEE from an accredited school, you are considered qualified to take the master exam. Someone at the state once told me that these people generally get the lowest scores on the exam. The curriculum in an EE program has almost nothing do to with what is covered on the exam.

That's true for a lot of undergraduate degrees. The degree teaches theory and then you start learning how to do the actual work on the job. My classmates couldn't program their way out of a paper bag. I worked through college and that's the only way I was able to do so.

I learned electromagnetics in Physics, but that's not how I learned about electricity. I had to stick my finger in a few outlets before I learned how it works

But seriously, I've known smart people who can't understanding "induction" or "voltage drop", and they're the ones who think a rolled up 100' blob of Romex is a great temporary extension cord because, hey, it's 12/2 -- it can handle 20A with no trouble at all. I think it comes from that famous line in Freshman Physics -- "Assume a frictionless pulley ..." Ask one of them to calculate short circuit current for a car battery and they are going to say something like "Undefined (or infinite), because division by zero is illegal!" They aren't going to consider either the wire resistance or the internal resistance in the battery. To them, I = E / R is, like, magic.

ANYWAY, much diversion. Looks like I have plenty to look into.

 

[busman]

Wow.

I have never heard of someone having a BSEE and also a year of experience setting for a master's license. That notion sounds like a bad idea for a graduate from my university! In our EE program, we learn nothing about building wiring, that is left to the Construction Engineering Dept.

As a journeyman spark, I feel that the knowledge I obtained on the job, through some very smart, and also some very stupid electricians, is irreplacible. There is nothing like the hands-on when it comes to the commercial/industrial trades.

I am interested to hear other opinions on this. Maybe I should start a new thread. I guess it makes sense if people are doing this so they can be a contractor, or something like that.

MP

Well, here in VA, a BSEE+1 year only gets you sitting for the J-man. You then need 2 additional years as a licensed J-man to sit for the Masters. J-man can work alone, but cannot pull permits.

Mark

 

[tallgirl]

Update ...

Update ...

So, Saturday I was asked -- in lieu of teaching the stuff I'd planned to teach on account of the City Council and Mayor were going to speak to the volunteer group -- to wire a water heater in a building. Sounded simple enough, me and a volunteer coordinator headed over to the building. I asked the usual questions about who is going to inspect, etc. and was told they had someone who'd check the work.

What I found was a mess, and I refused to do what I was being asked to do because it wouldn't have been compliant in any alternate universe. I explained they needed to get an EC in to install a completely new 30A circuit. No problem, he calls up a contractor, and the contractor says "Yeah, sure", but wants to know if they have a helper available. Coordinator guy offers me up, I agree, contractor guy gives me a grocery list, we head off to Home Despot.

Several hours, 100' of 10/2, losing my FMC virginity, and two new breakers later, the HWH is properly installed. I decide to practice my "Hi, I'm collecting hours" spiel, and I find out he's not a master electrician. Urph.

Some before and after piccies will be posted to the "Safety" forum whenever I can find my digital camera.