electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Am I just grumpy or are all these questions by people who are obviously doing their school work annoying anyone else. 
Get your book out and find the answer
- Thread starter electricmanscott
- Start date
- Status
russ
Senior Member
- Location
- Burbank IL
Re: Get your book out and find the answer
Ya, they should at least be trying to find the answers on there own, but I like the questions. I think that's what makes this board work, having so many people asking questions. Even the ones some consider easy to answer.
Russ
Ya, they should at least be trying to find the answers on there own, but I like the questions. I think that's what makes this board work, having so many people asking questions. Even the ones some consider easy to answer.
Russ
rick5280
Senior Member
Re: Get your book out and find the answer
I too dislike using this board to answer exam questions. One thing we can to do here. Direct those with obvious exam questions to post their question on the exam prep. forum. Or perhaps the moderators will relocate them, as needed. That way, whenever anyone wants to answer exam questions, they know that's what they are doing. I, for one, will not visit that forum much, but there may be some down time that I could. Let's leave this forum for NEC questions and concerns, not for doing exam prep.!!!!!
Rick Miell
I too dislike using this board to answer exam questions. One thing we can to do here. Direct those with obvious exam questions to post their question on the exam prep. forum. Or perhaps the moderators will relocate them, as needed. That way, whenever anyone wants to answer exam questions, they know that's what they are doing. I, for one, will not visit that forum much, but there may be some down time that I could. Let's leave this forum for NEC questions and concerns, not for doing exam prep.!!!!!
Rick Miell
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: Get your book out and find the answer
If you think they are test questions, just do not respond.
Mike P.
If you think they are test questions, just do not respond.
Mike P.
pwood
Member
- Location
- California
Re: Get your book out and find the answer
elscott,
i agree!iwas in the trades for 20+ years and then back to school because of job injury.in the inspector game research and knowing the codes is 90% of the job ,b.s.is 10%. do these students a service and let them do as a real inspector does,find the answers in the code books or network with other students.imho
elscott,
i agree!iwas in the trades for 20+ years and then back to school because of job injury.in the inspector game research and knowing the codes is 90% of the job ,b.s.is 10%. do these students a service and let them do as a real inspector does,find the answers in the code books or network with other students.imho
Re: Get your book out and find the answer
Rick, I agree. The moderators should relocate these questions to the "Exam" or " Calculation"
Forums. Even in these areas, these students should attempt to do the answers (and some do this) and then we can critique and help with where they have erred.
Roger
Rick, I agree. The moderators should relocate these questions to the "Exam" or " Calculation"
Forums. Even in these areas, these students should attempt to do the answers (and some do this) and then we can critique and help with where they have erred.
Roger
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Get your book out and find the answer
If you do not want to answer a question that you feel is a test question then don't answer it.
How is it that the questions are "annoying" just skip it and move on, any attempt to limit the questions here would be bad for all of us in the long term. Its not like these questions will "fill up" the board.
The board should stay open to all, that keeps it interesting, remember when you started in the trade all code questions seemed hard.
I agree they should find the answer on their own, but you can still steer them in the right direction without "handing" them the answer
Like Nick did here.
The Code question asked.
Nicks Response
Bob
[ March 01, 2003, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
If you do not want to answer a question that you feel is a test question then don't answer it.
How is it that the questions are "annoying" just skip it and move on, any attempt to limit the questions here would be bad for all of us in the long term. Its not like these questions will "fill up" the board.
The board should stay open to all, that keeps it interesting, remember when you started in the trade all code questions seemed hard.
I agree they should find the answer on their own, but you can still steer them in the right direction without "handing" them the answer
Like Nick did here.
The Code question asked.
Nicks Response
Just my 2 cents
Bob
[ March 01, 2003, 06:40 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: Get your book out and find the answer
Here's the deal. There is a section here called "Exam Prep" The annoyance here is that some of these people can't be bothered to post a question in the proper section. This attitude will most certainly be evident on a jobsite. Just to lazy to put some real effort into it. The next annoyance are the posters with multiple questions posted (in the wrong thread) asking for specific answers and code articles and how you came up with the answer. The problem here is people take no shame in cheating anymore which will also translate to the jobsite. When I was in school I was given work to do at home. Other than coming up with the answer the point was also to get you comfortable with the code book so you would be able to FIND the answer. I would rack my brain do the best I could to get my work completed. If I had trouble I could then go to the instructor and it would be discussed in class. Getting your answers here subverts that whole process. You get your answer, you get the question correct and you move on, yet you have learned nothing. To all you guys out there that piss and moan about the lack of quality in the help today look around here, this is your future!
[ March 01, 2003, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
Here's the deal. There is a section here called "Exam Prep" The annoyance here is that some of these people can't be bothered to post a question in the proper section. This attitude will most certainly be evident on a jobsite. Just to lazy to put some real effort into it. The next annoyance are the posters with multiple questions posted (in the wrong thread) asking for specific answers and code articles and how you came up with the answer. The problem here is people take no shame in cheating anymore which will also translate to the jobsite. When I was in school I was given work to do at home. Other than coming up with the answer the point was also to get you comfortable with the code book so you would be able to FIND the answer. I would rack my brain do the best I could to get my work completed. If I had trouble I could then go to the instructor and it would be discussed in class. Getting your answers here subverts that whole process. You get your answer, you get the question correct and you move on, yet you have learned nothing. To all you guys out there that piss and moan about the lack of quality in the help today look around here, this is your future!
[ March 01, 2003, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
Ed MacLaren
Senior Member
Re: Get your book out and find the answer
electricmanscott,
I agree with you 100%. Couldn't have said it better.
I have recently retired after 28 years as an instructor in electrical apprentice programs.
Giving the answer to these questions is not doing anyone a favor, least of all the person that asked the question.
They don't realize it now, but the one who makes them dig for the answer is their real friend.
In a research assignment, the answer to the question is not the important thing.
Learning how to access information using resources such as the code, reference books, manufacturers web sites, etc. is the valuable skill being developed.
Ed
electricmanscott,
I agree with you 100%. Couldn't have said it better.
I have recently retired after 28 years as an instructor in electrical apprentice programs.
Giving the answer to these questions is not doing anyone a favor, least of all the person that asked the question.
They don't realize it now, but the one who makes them dig for the answer is their real friend.
In a research assignment, the answer to the question is not the important thing.
Learning how to access information using resources such as the code, reference books, manufacturers web sites, etc. is the valuable skill being developed.
Ed
willmc
Member
- Location
- California
Re: Get your book out and find the answer
Gentlemen, My philosophy of "there's nothing too basic" is probably part of the source of your irritation. Even when I read every post in the archives and all my code books from '81 to '02, and question my co-workers, I worry that I'm missing something basic. (Senior moment probably), that's cool. I'll lurk as long as possible but will at some point ask another stupid question. For those who I've wasted your time - mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa - For those who answer - Thank you and I never resent being talked down to - For those who just read and digest and check their code and worry about the little, basic things - Bless you. I really appreciate every nugget of wisdom and this Forum is a goldmine. Oh, and by the way, I'm proud of my curmudgeon status so everything irritates me
Gentlemen, My philosophy of "there's nothing too basic" is probably part of the source of your irritation. Even when I read every post in the archives and all my code books from '81 to '02, and question my co-workers, I worry that I'm missing something basic. (Senior moment probably), that's cool. I'll lurk as long as possible but will at some point ask another stupid question. For those who I've wasted your time - mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa - For those who answer - Thank you and I never resent being talked down to - For those who just read and digest and check their code and worry about the little, basic things - Bless you. I really appreciate every nugget of wisdom and this Forum is a goldmine. Oh, and by the way, I'm proud of my curmudgeon status so everything irritates me
russellroberts
Senior Member
- Location
- Georgia
Re: Get your book out and find the answer
Ed made a point on another forum about not being able to "learn" the code as one learns a theory or principle.The more you use the codebook the more you become familiar with it.As a middle-aged guy who's struggling to prepare for a license exam this year, this was a valuable lesson I learned just by hanging out and reading posts.It stays with you much better if you find it yourself.
Ed made a point on another forum about not being able to "learn" the code as one learns a theory or principle.The more you use the codebook the more you become familiar with it.As a middle-aged guy who's struggling to prepare for a license exam this year, this was a valuable lesson I learned just by hanging out and reading posts.It stays with you much better if you find it yourself.
landelectric
Member
- Location
- Colorado
Re: Get your book out and find the answer
A novice just entering the trade can have one hell of a time finding tricky test answers in the NEC.
One thing that we experienced electricians can do to help them out is to provide information about
specific trade nomenclature and jargon.
Without knowing the "words" the NEC might just as well be written in Greek.
Often an apprentice will not know that a "wire" is a type of "conductor" or that a "conduit" is a type of "raceway".
If we don't have time to help out those wanting to learn the trade, then where did we find the time to be at this website at all ??
Eric Land
[ March 01, 2003, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: landelectric ]
A novice just entering the trade can have one hell of a time finding tricky test answers in the NEC.
One thing that we experienced electricians can do to help them out is to provide information about
specific trade nomenclature and jargon.
Without knowing the "words" the NEC might just as well be written in Greek.
Often an apprentice will not know that a "wire" is a type of "conductor" or that a "conduit" is a type of "raceway".
If we don't have time to help out those wanting to learn the trade, then where did we find the time to be at this website at all ??
Eric Land
[ March 01, 2003, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: landelectric ]
Len_B
Member
- Location
- New Hampshire
Re: Get your book out and find the answer
This is not just a problem with first or second year apprentices. Plenty of seasoned journeymen from Colorado recently used this site as an easy way out to obtain answers on a recertification test.
THE COMPLAINT HERE IS ABOUT LAZINESS!
Posting test questions vebatim, without posting the steps(correct or incorrect) already taken towards finding an answer, is simply laziness. This forum can be a great asset, but it should never be the first source for an answer when a problem is presented.
[ March 01, 2003, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Len_B ]
This is not just a problem with first or second year apprentices. Plenty of seasoned journeymen from Colorado recently used this site as an easy way out to obtain answers on a recertification test.
THE COMPLAINT HERE IS ABOUT LAZINESS!
Posting test questions vebatim, without posting the steps(correct or incorrect) already taken towards finding an answer, is simply laziness. This forum can be a great asset, but it should never be the first source for an answer when a problem is presented.
Quoting chapter and verse from the Code is but a parlor trick. Employers don't need electricians who have memorized the Code. They need electricians who can produce work and solve problems by applying the Code and other knowledge to the task at hand. Your value as an employee, electrician, or businessman will never be greater than your ability to find the answers to new questions.
[ March 01, 2003, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Len_B ]
landelectric
Member
- Location
- Colorado
Re: Get your book out and find the answer
Very well said Len B. however, I am much less annoyed by students looking for shortcuts then by Handymen presenting themselves as Electricians while circumventing the licensing process altogether !
"Let's string 'em up boys !!"
The help an apprentice gets from the use of this BB is not unlike the kind of mentoring that used to be available on the jobsite from older and wiser Electricians. That workplace environment rarely exists anymore for a variety of reasons.
Eric Land
[ March 01, 2003, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: landelectric ]
Very well said Len B. however, I am much less annoyed by students looking for shortcuts then by Handymen presenting themselves as Electricians while circumventing the licensing process altogether !
"Let's string 'em up boys !!"
The help an apprentice gets from the use of this BB is not unlike the kind of mentoring that used to be available on the jobsite from older and wiser Electricians. That workplace environment rarely exists anymore for a variety of reasons.
Eric Land
[ March 01, 2003, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: landelectric ]
Re: Get your book out and find the answer
i probably shouldnt even put my "2 cents worth" in, because i know its gonna make me sound like a grouchy old codger but, every test i've had to take in my 30 odd years in this trade, i had to do all the research, and find the answers without the aid of the "internet", or even a computer. (some of the tests, we were allowed to use a calculator tho'). the great and profound beauty of doing it the "hard way" is that, while searching through the code book for an answer, i invariably ran across something else i needed to know, and, in most cases, remembered "where" to find that info again, without having to go through the whole book. these folks these days that are looking for a "shortcut" or the "easy way" to pass these exams, are, in my opinion, no better than the high school kid who copied from his neighbor in class, or wrote answers on his inner forearm, to be retrieved during the test session, (lol!...i tried that stuff too).
bottom line is, if its important enough that your planning a career around it, then its important enough for you, not someone else, to find out the answers, and, how they apply to your "real world". so, dont ask me, cause i wont tell you, other than "look it up in your code book".
gramps
i probably shouldnt even put my "2 cents worth" in, because i know its gonna make me sound like a grouchy old codger but, every test i've had to take in my 30 odd years in this trade, i had to do all the research, and find the answers without the aid of the "internet", or even a computer. (some of the tests, we were allowed to use a calculator tho'). the great and profound beauty of doing it the "hard way" is that, while searching through the code book for an answer, i invariably ran across something else i needed to know, and, in most cases, remembered "where" to find that info again, without having to go through the whole book. these folks these days that are looking for a "shortcut" or the "easy way" to pass these exams, are, in my opinion, no better than the high school kid who copied from his neighbor in class, or wrote answers on his inner forearm, to be retrieved during the test session, (lol!...i tried that stuff too).
bottom line is, if its important enough that your planning a career around it, then its important enough for you, not someone else, to find out the answers, and, how they apply to your "real world". so, dont ask me, cause i wont tell you, other than "look it up in your code book".
gramps
nosparks
Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Get your book out and find the answer
I am ticked off at all the laziness here. As an instructor I teach my guys how to use the code book to find the answers. The table of contents as well as the index in the back. Also how to pull out of the question the "key words", I am reminded of the type of guy that sits in the middle of my class and finds everything to talk about except what goes on in class. Then he is trying to tell me that I need to slow down, or he is the same one that needs to ask over and over again to see how it is done. I tip my hat to those that try to help these guys, but the man that started this post is right these questions are starting to get manotanous. My advice to you guys doing the asking... you won't be able to access the internet out in the field, so stop taking the easy way out. The answers eventually come easier with a little effort and practice. Take it from me I struggled in this trade, but perserverance pays higher in the end. If you have a question, ask me how to teach you to look for it, and I will.
[ March 03, 2003, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: nosparks ]
I am ticked off at all the laziness here. As an instructor I teach my guys how to use the code book to find the answers. The table of contents as well as the index in the back. Also how to pull out of the question the "key words", I am reminded of the type of guy that sits in the middle of my class and finds everything to talk about except what goes on in class. Then he is trying to tell me that I need to slow down, or he is the same one that needs to ask over and over again to see how it is done. I tip my hat to those that try to help these guys, but the man that started this post is right these questions are starting to get manotanous. My advice to you guys doing the asking... you won't be able to access the internet out in the field, so stop taking the easy way out. The answers eventually come easier with a little effort and practice. Take it from me I struggled in this trade, but perserverance pays higher in the end. If you have a question, ask me how to teach you to look for it, and I will.
[ March 03, 2003, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: nosparks ]
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
Re: Get your book out and find the answer
I agree finding answers in the NEC can be hard. The index or is it annex is not all that helpfull. Out here in Washington State we use firms fast finder for look ups in the NEC.
Actually the best way to look up things is the electronic version of the NEC. If you purchase it and the code book together you get a pretty good deal.
Our journeyman tests are open book. Knowing where the answer is important. If you are thumbing around you will run out of time.
You can always tell a test question post from a homeowner post. I usually give the section number only.
I agree finding answers in the NEC can be hard. The index or is it annex is not all that helpfull. Out here in Washington State we use firms fast finder for look ups in the NEC.
Actually the best way to look up things is the electronic version of the NEC. If you purchase it and the code book together you get a pretty good deal.
Our journeyman tests are open book. Knowing where the answer is important. If you are thumbing around you will run out of time.
You can always tell a test question post from a homeowner post. I usually give the section number only.
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