Getting a delta secondary from a wye transformer

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mhowlett

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Lexington KY
We have a project where we are changing the service from 480/277V, 3-phase, 4-wire wye to 480V, 3-phase, 3-wire, corner grounded delta. We are doing this to avoid required ground fault protection in the breakers. We have addressed neutral loads using individual 480V x 480/277V transformers at the loads. The existing service transformers are 12470V delta primary, 480/277V wye secondary. We have disconnected the neutral in the main switchgear. Questions: Must we disconnect the neutral at the transformer, and remove the jumper which bonds the XO, or can we just leave the three phase conductors connected at the load end, with the neutral disconnected? Would it even be permitted to disconnect the neutral in the transformer? If so, is an equipment ground required between the generator and the main switchgear? I generally do not connect the transformer ground to the system grounding electrode.
 
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ActionDave

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We have a project where we are changing the service from 480/277V, 3-phase, 4-wire wye to 480V, 3-phase, 3-wire, corner grounded delta. We are doing this to avoid required ground fault protection in the breakers. We have addressed neutral loads using individual 480V x 480/277V transformers at the loads. The existing service transformers are 12470V delta primary, 480/277V wye secondary.
You need a delta secondary to have a corner ground.

We have disconnected the neutral in the main switchgear. Questions: Must we disconnect the neutral at the transformer, and remove the jumper which bonds the XO, or can we just leave the three phase conductors connected at the load end, with the neutral disconnected? Would it even be permitted to disconnect the neutral in the transformer?
Right now you have an ungrounded system with no way to clear a fault.

If so, is an equipment ground required between the generator and the main switchgear?
What generator?

I generally do not connect the transformer ground to the system grounding electrode.
I'm not sure what you mean by "transformer ground".
 

infinity

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Do have this right? The transformer secondary is Wye but you're only going to bring 3Ø (3 conductors) into the service with no neutral. Whether you bring in the 4th conductor or not isn't the Wye secondary already grounded?
 

__dan

Senior Member
In prehistoric times, someone had the bright idea that they could raise the sea level to keep the reptiles from crawling out.

In ancient times, there was Sysiphus.

In modern times, companies are chopping payroll and replacing payroll with automation, including automatically operating safety devices like GF trip.

Somehow, your company has hung onto the people with previously bright ideas, but you want to chop the automation. Replacing your (large plant) main transformer with a delta secondary is Sysiphean. If you can even get one.

It is now 2018. The first trip of the GF at the main when it has to will prove to be money well spent. You would rather fix the fault current damage from the large delta secondary and visit friends in the hospital who were too close to it when some reptile decided to crawl out.
 

jim dungar

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Questions: Must we disconnect the neutral at the transformer, and remove the jumper which bonds the XO, or can we just leave the three phase conductors connected at the load end, with the neutral disconnected? Would it even be permitted to disconnect the neutral in the transformer? If so, is an equipment ground required between the generator and the main switchgear?

If the service has a neutral point (e,g, X0 bonded to ground), then ground fault is required even if you do not bring the neutral conductor into you building. Per the NEC it must be brought to the service entrance equipment.

I find it easier, overall, to provide multiple levels of ground fault rather than eliminating the one at the main device.I don't like to run a system in a faulted condition.

Have you considered using a High Resistance Ground system?
 
Do have this right? The transformer secondary is Wye but you're only going to bring 3Ø (3 conductors) into the service with no neutral. Whether you bring in the 4th conductor or not isn't the Wye secondary already grounded?

I don't see why, in theory and per code, one couldnt have a 480/277 transformer with a wye secondary, leave the XO floating and unconnected and ungrounded (assuming the XO is unbondable), run just the three phase conductors to the service equipment and dodge the GFP requirement. As others have said, I am skeptical this is a wise pursuit. What is the reason for dodging GFP? How about using the 2-6 rule with each service disconnect rated under 1000?
 

mhowlett

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Lexington KY
Action Dave, I meant to say "transformer" not generator. Long day. I'm trying to determine if I need to have an equipment ground between the transformer and the main gear under the proposed 3-ph, 3-wire scenario. I'm trying to turn the secondary from a wye to a delta and corner ground it.

Infinity, yes, the X/F has been connected as a wye but I"m trying to go to a 3-wire delta service.

Electrofelon, that is exactly what I'm trying to do. The reason is we have two utility services (main-tie-main) and we are adding a generator as a third source. The existing main breakers are 3000A with GF. The switchgear mfr is saying the proposed generator breaker is not compatible with the existing breakers for modified differential ground fault, and they must be replaced. I'm trying to eliminate the ground fault requirement altogether to avoid spending six figures replacing two relatively new 3000A breakers. I would rather not take this approach but budget leaves us no choice. Leaving the X/O floating at the transformer is what I'm trying to figure out. Do I disconnect it? I still want to use the grounding electrode at the service and corner ground the delta at the switchgear.
 

__dan

Senior Member
Action Dave, I meant to say "transformer" not generator. Long day. I'm trying to determine if I need to have an equipment ground between the transformer and the main gear under the proposed 3-ph, 3-wire scenario. I'm trying to turn the secondary from a wye to a delta and corner ground it.

Infinity, yes, the X/F has been connected as a wye but I"m trying to go to a 3-wire delta service.

Electrofelon, that is exactly what I'm trying to do. The reason is we have two utility services (main-tie-main) and we are adding a generator as a third source. The existing main breakers are 3000A with GF. The switchgear mfr is saying the proposed generator breaker is not compatible with the existing breakers for modified differential ground fault, and they must be replaced. I'm trying to eliminate the ground fault requirement altogether to avoid spending six figures replacing two relatively new 3000A breakers. I would rather not take this approach but budget leaves us no choice. Leaving the X/O floating at the transformer is what I'm trying to figure out. Do I disconnect it? I still want to use the grounding electrode at the service and corner ground the delta at the switchgear.

If it were me I would not consider the change to a floating delta supply, so that would leave me with only looking at the alternates. If I read correctly, when you convert to floating delta at the MTM, the existing mainbreaker GF trip will be disabled?

Look at the problem from the load side, from the main and its MDP main distribution feeders. If I read correctly supply is currently 480 / 277 Y solidly grounded. The existing neutral conductor is already at the MD switchgear? Tt has a continuous neutral bus?

Any of the feeders, the loads, that carry a neutral from the main gear and put a load on the neutral. That's where I would try no look. Those select loads could be refed with the 480 delta to 480 Y transformer(s), to eliminate the neutral current as a load at the main MD switchgear. At the main dual source bus, eliminate the neutral connected loads, so there should be no need for the neutral conductor for any load at the MD.

The generator would be non separately derived and floating Y. The neutral would travel to the gear but the system is now 3 phase 3 wire (five conductors, neutral and EGC). Three pole switch may be possible with a solidly connected neutral.

The usual system noise of neutral current finding a parallel path on the grounding system, because of more than one system bonding jumper. Working the problem from the load side, there is no neutral current on the grounding paths, because neutral connected loads are not allowed directly downstream of the main. The main gear is 3 phase 3 wire, or can be converted to 3 ph 3 w, by converting any remaining loads than are neutral connected.

The original manufacturer of that gear, they must have a way to do it, keeping with the original functionality and design intent. There may be a way to clean up the load side and float the generator.
 

mhowlett

Member
Location
Lexington KY
Thanks, Dan. Are you suggesting leaving the neutral connected at the main gear? If so, I think the GF would be required. I want to disconnect the neutral there and corner ground the B phase. The neutral loads downstream have already been addressed using transformers at the load.

Yes, the intent is to disable the GF in the existing main breakers once this is done.
 

infinity

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Does the NEC allow you to leave a Wye secondary ungrounded even if you're not connecting neutral loads?
 

__dan

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Yes. There has to be a way to keep and maintain the existing GF trips at the main. I would keep going round with the breaker manufacturer to satisfy myself of this. There is a standard implementation using the existing (I am guessing). I would look for this.

I don't see why adding the generator should create a problem as long as all the loads are line to line. Neutral current noise in the wrong place on the grounding system should be as small as possible. I would not expect zero on a system that size, but I would go looking at anything I could measure with an amp clamp.

I cannot see how the main breaker manufacturer could be comfortable or complacent with a conversion to floating delta and disabling the existing GF trip. Most people would be going the other way, from floating to solidly grounded.

If it were me, my brain would be screaming at me to fix it at the design stage before touching the work. Not touching the existing MTM is the smart play.

Can the generator be tied in further downstream from the main bus. It may be possible to put in an array of ATS switches for the load side feeders instead of trying to close to the main bus with one big breaker (if that is what you are trying to do). This would have an advantage that you could close to the feeder loads sequentially and not all at once.
 

jim dungar

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You need to understand why your system was installed with a Modified Differential Ground Fault scheme (MDGF) in the first place. The problem with multiple neutral to ground bonds is that the resulting parallel paths can cause GF relays to operate when they shouldn't and also to not operate when they should.
 

mhowlett

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Location
Lexington KY
My understanding is the NEC does not require the neutral of a transformer to be grounded if there are no neutral loads. But I assume I can still corner ground the B phase at the service entrance equipment to the grounding electrode.
 

mhowlett

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Location
Lexington KY
Dan, the generator has to be connected at the main as it is required to operate any load at the plant. I agree disabling the GF protection is not ideal, as does the manufacturer. But they will only agree to install the new generator breaker if MDGF is used, which can't be done without replacing.

Jim, the manufacturer insists on using MDGF when there are multiple sources.

I really don't want an ungrounded system. I'm trying to figure out how to connect as a corner grounded delta.
 

__dan

Senior Member
My understanding is the NEC does not require the neutral of a transformer to be grounded if there are no neutral loads. But I assume I can still corner ground the B phase at the service entrance equipment to the grounding electrode.

Grounding the B phase, any phase, is the first ground fault in a floating system.

I would keep shopping it around until you find a specialized vendor who can offer something that is a standardized modern solution. There is a standard and recognized way of doing this. GF trip is a feature you want to have when you need it.

The existing breaker manufacturer, I would exhaust all the possibilities with them before proceeding.
 
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