Getting Equipment Listed - Internationally

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

megloff11x

Senior Member
We have a machine that needs to be listed for Class 1 Division 2, and it needs to be approved for Europe, which means CE. The various standards are usually in conflict - for example we have to use blue & brown wire in Europe instead of black & white. They also don't like to accept each others' approvals when they do agree, just as your kid's college classes won't transfer to the new school so they can get more tuition money from you.

Can anyone recommend a certifying agency (in addition to UL) that is good at getting you maximum approvals and listings at minimum cost and effort - in other words, avoiding duplication of tests and making them accept each others' functionally identical standards?

If you wonder why these things cost so much, it's paying off all those little stamps at $10K to $100K up front each, divided by number of units sold.

Matt
 
I generally like Intertek -ETL SEMKO. They have a broad international operation thay usually speeds up the process of cross certification.
 
megloff11x said:
We have a machine that needs to be listed for Class 1 Division 2, and it needs to be approved for Europe, which means CE. .

Matt
Click to expand...

I just noticed you said Class I, Division 2. Europe has a different system based on zones for hazardous areas. It is different enough that it is unlikely any of the electrical components you have on the machine can be used.

CE is not a listing or an approval. It is your certification that the equipment meets ALL government requirements. You can self-certify, but unless you know all the requirements, and there are thousands of pages of them, I would suggest hiring someone to do it for you. There can be criminal penalties associated with not meeting the requirements if you sign the form personally.

My guess is that you will find that a substantial, maybe a complete re-design of the machine is required to meet all the CE requirements.
 
I was going to express agreement with Bob, but now it seems... it is necessary to make a choice. Both Bobs are right! ETL is a faster, less arduous alternative to UL. The other NRTL which provides similar services would be TUV (umlaut U, of course.) Haven't compared these for several years, so it might be worthwhile to do so...

One way (the wrong way) we approached this ten years ago, was to have a company in CH distribute in many areas... They came up with a preposterous set of six, count 'em, safety relays which all had six interlocking contacts inside and the SUVA registration was accepted on the continent. Turned out they were selling the machines for Japanese prices, no support, should never have done this. Perhaps you have a better distributor; the folks in the UK ended up sending equipment to Ireland and India and other places they had no legal right to... oh well... they got in trouble, and had to promise not to do it again, unless they 'really really' had to... they made it easy. How do I make trouble into a #6 font in this new software?

Found an interesting page for FM which I know only from specialty items, hazardous locations and so forth. Personally never had anything FM approved, but their page looks encouraging. Couldn't hurt to call (okay, someone chime in about how this is the worst idea ever, I'm waiting for it)
http://www.fmglobal.com/approvals/news/eu_certification.asp
 
I'll echo Petersonra.

Apart from designing a safe machine, the only thing you absolutely need is to keep the CE certificate and the test papers available in a EU member state. If the authorities wants to, they can ask to have a copy of all these documents.

There are quite a few standards, but not everything in them is mandatory. There is more than one way to meet a requirement. Just because European equipment is typcially built in a certain way, it doesn't follow that you have to build it that way to meet the safety requirements.

In many cases it is possible to design equipment that meets both CE and UL requirements. The parts don't need to be CE marked, as long as you assume the responsibility for them. (UL is considered to be a PITA by European manufacturers. "Why should each component be UL listed? That's nuts!")

I will make a guess and say it's cheaper to solve safety and certification problems on the design stage than on the finished product. The cheapest way to start is to buy a good book with a checklist on the subject. The book will contain a lot of silly questions and a few that makes you think: "Oh ****, why didn't we think of that?"

The expensive part is to get the standards which you deem relevant and check them out or get a consultant to do it for you.
 
rbalex said:
I generally like Intertek -ETL SEMKO. They have a broad international operation thay usually speeds up the process of cross certification.
Click to expand...

Is this company an alternative to UL that also does CE certification? My experience with various agencies who certify, and this includes mostly industry specific certifications as well, have not been good. They are not consistent. Some of their requirements seem to be whims, and when pressed, they drop them. I've seen some of these companies dropped in favor of others who are not as nitpicky.

The result is I get listed products that should meet radiated emissions requirements, but cause a whole system to fail a radiated emissions test because they broadcast better than the local AM talk radio station. Who certified this one? Or they cease working when subjected to the required Voltage spike tests they should have passed to get their stamps, and we have to add MOV or other surge suppression.

I recently had a UL and CE stamped motor controller, rated for 20A RMS operation, but with 15A/14AWG rated power connectors and motor connectors. Who missed that one?

Or we do a redesign and it becomes a kluge, and the next inspecting agency comes in and says, "why did you do that? You didn't have to; it was fine the original way."

I am reminded of my Father's restaurant in NY where the health inspector didn't care if it was clean or not, and wouldn't even look, unless he didn't get his envelope and if it wasn't full enough - in which case an operating room wouldn't pass. As opposed to the way things should work where you have clear, sensible standards to meet, and consistent guidance provided.

You have to forgive me for being cynical but it's what I've seen over the years. I've also been in over a dozen car crashes, including four deer slain, and walked away without air bags even when I had to be pried free of the vehicle. Meanwhile I know many who have been seriously hurt by air bags in what would have been a minor fender bender, but according to NHTSA, a new car isn't safe without an air bag (which kill at least 100 small adults and children a year)?

I guess what I'm asking for is a no-BS certifying agency that isn't going to miss something real and isn't going to tell me to do something that is irrelevant or worse, dangerous, because they don't know what they're talking about.

I'll freely admit that I have a hard time keeping up with all of the standards and wading through the grayer areas. I just want it to be right, so I ask.

Sorry for the rant, and I do appreciate the advice given here, which has been good and solid.

Matt
 
megloff11x said:
Is this company an alternative to UL that also does CE certification? ...
Click to expand...
 They are an alternative to UL and I've had excellent service from them. Their "SEMKO" arm is a well respected "third party" in the EU.

The CE mark is essentially a manufactures self-certification though. You may want ATEX certification. I?m less familiar with it and truthfully, I don't believe the bugs have been worked out in the EU.
 
Be aware that all of their agencies have their own "mark", be it UL, T?V, SEMKO or something else and all want to sell it. Question is, does the customer even recognise it? Outside their respective country in Europe, probably not. The law only recognises the CE mark.
 
Sorry I'm a little late to this thread, but I would like to chime in.

In order to get the CE mark on a bit of equipment for use in a potentially explosive atmosphere (ie. haz area) you must comply with the ATEX directive. (Note that I said "equipment" and not specifically electrical equipment, because technically the ATEX directive applies even if it is not electrical such as mechanically driven equipment that could generate heat or sparks.) In addition to ATEX, to legally apply the CE mark, the equipment must meet the requirements of all applicable directives (Machinery, EMC, PED etc). Some directives allow the manufacturer to "self certify" and others require "Notified Body" involvement. In the case of ATEX, you can "self certify" for some some classifications under this directive.

Regarding the testing labs/Notified Bodies, UL has partnered with DEMKO to assist in certifying equipment to the European directives. We utilize enclosures from a particular manufacturer who dual certifies them through UL/Demko to the CE (IEC) / NEC (500 & 505) standards so that they can be used in both Europe and North America. I am not sure how this applies to the equipment you are looking to certify as enclosures are relatively simple. I have personally worked with DNV for European(ATEX/CE) only approved equipment and they have been quite good to work with. They have given some advice on NEC systems but I am not sure if they have the capability to test/list for North America.

The whole point of the CE mark is to remove barriers to trade in the EU. As a part of this an approval by any reconized Notified Body (Nobo) must be recognized by any other Nobo and by any member of the EU. Theoretically, then it does not matter which Nobo you choose. Practically, I suppose there is difference in who you choose but I do not have much experience on the North American side so I cannot really comment on who would be best.

One thing to look into that is relatively new is the IECEx scheme which is intended to be the true "international" haz area standard. I only recently found out about this and cannot offer much on how accepted it is in North America. I am definitely going to find out more, since I believe this is the way things are going in our increasingly global marketplace.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top