I am the Safety rep. in a building that is nearly 20 years old. We are in Sparks, NV and the question has been brought up: Does our building need GFCI outlets in the break rooms and restrooms if they are not already in place. OSHA hasn't been much help with a definitive answer. Does anyone out there know?
GFCI compliance
- Thread starter bbrieger
- Start date
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petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: GFCI compliance
This situation is covered in 210.8 (B) (since this is not a dwelling unit)
The bathrooms are pretty straightforward. You have to decide if the breakrooms qualify as kitchens.
210.8 (B) Other Than Dwelling Units.
All 125-volt, singlephase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1), (2), and (3) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel:
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Rooftops
Exception: Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied from a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of Article 426.
(3) Kitchens
[ October 19, 2005, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
This situation is covered in 210.8 (B) (since this is not a dwelling unit)
The bathrooms are pretty straightforward. You have to decide if the breakrooms qualify as kitchens.
210.8 (B) Other Than Dwelling Units.
All 125-volt, singlephase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1), (2), and (3) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel:
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Rooftops
Exception: Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied from a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of Article 426.
(3) Kitchens
[ October 19, 2005, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: GFCI compliance
Nevada is one of sixteen States that has received "Final Approval" under the FedOSHA program. This means they only have a "Consultation" arrangement with the Feds. It also means the State Plan is in substantial conformance with the Fed Plan.
Essentially, Nevada's OSHA (or FedOSHA) can enforce the NEC "retroactively" to the extent that they determine there is an "imminent danger." They cannot fine or prosecute since that would be ex post facto ; but they can shut down an operation until it complies.
The issue then is determining if there is an "imminent danger." That means they must find that the danger is inherent rather than operational. GFCI's improve safety rather than create it. If systems are properly installed and maintained there is no inherent value to GFCI's.
Conversely, should an employee ever be injured and an GFCI could possibly have prevented it, it is prima face evidence that the employer's safety program was inadequate and THAT is both finable and prosecutable.
Nevada is one of sixteen States that has received "Final Approval" under the FedOSHA program. This means they only have a "Consultation" arrangement with the Feds. It also means the State Plan is in substantial conformance with the Fed Plan.
Essentially, Nevada's OSHA (or FedOSHA) can enforce the NEC "retroactively" to the extent that they determine there is an "imminent danger." They cannot fine or prosecute since that would be ex post facto ; but they can shut down an operation until it complies.
The issue then is determining if there is an "imminent danger." That means they must find that the danger is inherent rather than operational. GFCI's improve safety rather than create it. If systems are properly installed and maintained there is no inherent value to GFCI's.
Conversely, should an employee ever be injured and an GFCI could possibly have prevented it, it is prima face evidence that the employer's safety program was inadequate and THAT is both finable and prosecutable.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: GFCI compliance
Does the building need them? No. Should you install them anyway. My answer is "yes." Consider this:
A circuit breaker that supplies power to most of the stuff you will see in a break room or a restroom will be either 15 amp or 20 amp. Let's talk about the smaller one, the 15 amp breaker. Let's talk about the load that is normally on such a breaker. Let's say it is relatively heavily loaded: 12 amp load.
Now suppose that some device (microwave oven, toaster oven, coffee pot, hair dryer, whatever) has an internal breakdown. A person touching the device could get a shock. Because the body has much more resistance than, say, the coffee pot, there won't be much current flowing through the "victim." I will use that term for the following reason. A current of one tenth of an amp is enough to kill. But if you add that one tenth of an amp to the 12 amps already being drawn by the circuit, the total current will only be 12.1 amps. That will not cause the 15 amp breaker to trip.
Bottom line: 120 volts can kill, and the circuit breaker WILL NOT save you.
That is why GFCI circuits are worth the small cost of having them installed. They will trip on a current that is twenty times smaller than a potentially fatal shock.
Does the building need them? No. Should you install them anyway. My answer is "yes." Consider this:
A circuit breaker that supplies power to most of the stuff you will see in a break room or a restroom will be either 15 amp or 20 amp. Let's talk about the smaller one, the 15 amp breaker. Let's talk about the load that is normally on such a breaker. Let's say it is relatively heavily loaded: 12 amp load.
Now suppose that some device (microwave oven, toaster oven, coffee pot, hair dryer, whatever) has an internal breakdown. A person touching the device could get a shock. Because the body has much more resistance than, say, the coffee pot, there won't be much current flowing through the "victim." I will use that term for the following reason. A current of one tenth of an amp is enough to kill. But if you add that one tenth of an amp to the 12 amps already being drawn by the circuit, the total current will only be 12.1 amps. That will not cause the 15 amp breaker to trip.
Bottom line: 120 volts can kill, and the circuit breaker WILL NOT save you.
That is why GFCI circuits are worth the small cost of having them installed. They will trip on a current that is twenty times smaller than a potentially fatal shock.
jtester
Senior Member
- Location
- Las Cruces N.M.
Re: GFCI compliance
I practice in New Mexico and recently OSHA came thru a local municipalities buildings and required that some bathroom receptacles be changed to GFCI even though they had been in place since before 1987. No one argued and they were replaced. Maybe they shouldn't have required it but they did.
Jim T
I practice in New Mexico and recently OSHA came thru a local municipalities buildings and required that some bathroom receptacles be changed to GFCI even though they had been in place since before 1987. No one argued and they were replaced. Maybe they shouldn't have required it but they did.
Jim T
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: GFCI compliance
i thought local government units were exempt from osha inspections.
i thought local government units were exempt from osha inspections.
jtester
Senior Member
- Location
- Las Cruces N.M.
Re: GFCI compliance
posted by petersonra
I suspect that the City doesn't know if they are exempt or not. I may have to look into it. Thanks
Jim T
posted by petersonra
They well could be, I was doing some remodels when the building supervisor came in and told me that OSHA had been there.
I suspect that the City doesn't know if they are exempt or not. I may have to look into it. Thanks
Jim T
B
bthielen
Guest
Re: GFCI compliance
I have always felt that the major reason for requiring GFCI protection in kitchens, bathroooms, garages, outdoor, unfinished basements, etc. is the higher potential for contact with water or other liquids that can dramatically reduce one's bodily resistance. Wet skin has a lower resistance than dry so it would stand to reason that there is a higher potential risk for exceeding the .1A required to kill in these areas.
Your comments, Charlie, would support GFCI protection for all circuits regardless of location and I expect that day will come. Just being in a kitchen or bathroom doesn't increase the risk because the appliances used there draw more current, does it? Does a device drawing 12A increase the risk for electrocution any more than an appliance that draws 3A? If there is an internal breakdown, isn't the potential for a .1A current through one's body still there just the same regardless of the normal current load of the appliance?
Bob
I have always felt that the major reason for requiring GFCI protection in kitchens, bathroooms, garages, outdoor, unfinished basements, etc. is the higher potential for contact with water or other liquids that can dramatically reduce one's bodily resistance. Wet skin has a lower resistance than dry so it would stand to reason that there is a higher potential risk for exceeding the .1A required to kill in these areas.
Your comments, Charlie, would support GFCI protection for all circuits regardless of location and I expect that day will come. Just being in a kitchen or bathroom doesn't increase the risk because the appliances used there draw more current, does it? Does a device drawing 12A increase the risk for electrocution any more than an appliance that draws 3A? If there is an internal breakdown, isn't the potential for a .1A current through one's body still there just the same regardless of the normal current load of the appliance?
Bob
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: GFCI compliance
Not at all, Bob. I was addressing the consequences of a failed electrical component, with and without having GFCI protection. I agree with your views of the reason GFCIs are required in the areas you listed. What this speaks to is the probability of a short circuit taking place.
jeff43222
Senior Member
- Location
- Minneapolis, Minnesota
Re: GFCI compliance
If I lived in a place called Sparks, I'd put AFCIs on every circuit.
If I lived in a place called Sparks, I'd put AFCIs on every circuit.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: GFCI compliance
The question here has to do with retroactive enforcement in an old building by OSHA.
Yes that is entirely true...if the building is built under the 2005 NEC.
The question here has to do with retroactive enforcement in an old building by OSHA.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: GFCI compliance
I think the problem here is that OSHA is trying to be the AHJ. They do not use the NEC; they have their own rules.
Look at the profile for the Original Poster. He is the safety representative for his company. As such, he is not likely to use the NEC.
The question was whether GFCI was required. It is not. If they choose to replace the receptacles, and I think that would be a good idea, then they will hire an electrician who will have to open the NEC at that time.
I think the problem here is that OSHA is trying to be the AHJ. They do not use the NEC; they have their own rules.
Look at the profile for the Original Poster. He is the safety representative for his company. As such, he is not likely to use the NEC.
The question was whether GFCI was required. It is not. If they choose to replace the receptacles, and I think that would be a good idea, then they will hire an electrician who will have to open the NEC at that time.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: GFCI compliance
If you read OSHA electrical sections you find that they are generally word for word the NEC.
Here is a quick example.
2002 NEC
[ November 22, 2005, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
FWIW They have there own 'book' but it is made up of dozens of other existing standards.
If you read OSHA electrical sections you find that they are generally word for word the NEC.
Here is a quick example.
2002 NEC
OSHA
[ November 22, 2005, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: GFCI compliance
OSHA can pretty much go wherever there are workers, the AHJ has no influence with OSHA
I do not see how the AHJ will ave anything to do with it.
OSHA can pretty much go wherever there are workers, the AHJ has no influence with OSHA
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