Gfci failing when first energized

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Family man

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I know Gfci' shave came up A lot lately, so it may have been covered, but I rerouted circuit to a garage and separated parts to be dedicated, but when I went to install the lead Gfci in existing circuitry when I tried to reset it it began buzzing loudly, i pushed the test button and it quit but went back to buzzing immediately on trying to reset. This time it was rendered inoperable. I measured 60 volts between the line and load phase conductors. I opened up the devices in the circuit but still had 24 volts on one of the load wires and 26 or so on the other. I am a bit puzzled about where this residual voltage is coming from being it is just two wire nm cable and none of the boxes in the circuit contain any wires from another circuit. And am questioning whether that high of residual voltage could cause damage to the electronics in a Gfci. Any thoughts would be much appreciated.


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What is the voltage between the line side ungrounded and grounded conductors?

GFCIs will lock out/not energize now ("now" being mid 2015-on) if line/load are reversed... Im assuming they will do the same if polarity is wrong as well, at least on the line side. Never heard of one getting fried if hooked up wrong but GFCI were changed as of last year... since hooking them up wrong is fairly common, and blown up new GFCI stories arent, I'm guessing you got a bad or returned one out of the box.

Verify your line side is line side, and the voltage, and polarity. You can try hooking it up again...me, I'd throw it in the trash and eat the $20. They arent supposed to make those sounds.

Your voltage readings on a compromised/damaged GFCI are virtually meaningless, unfortunately.
 
JFletcher said:
What is the voltage between the line side ungrounded and grounded conductors?

GFCIs will lock out/not energize now ("now" being mid 2015-on) if line/load are reversed... Im assuming they will do the same if polarity is wrong as well, at least on the line side. Never heard of one getting fried if hooked up wrong but GFCI were changed as of last year... since hooking them up wrong is fairly common, and blown up new GFCI stories arent, I'm guessing you got a bad or returned one out of the box.

Verify your line side is line side, and the voltage, and polarity. You can try hooking it up again...me, I'd throw it in the trash and eat the $20. They arent supposed to make those sounds.

Your voltage readings on a compromised/damaged GFCI are virtually meaningless, unfortunately.
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they will not detect reverse polarity. You would need a ground reference to the device to be able to do that, yes they have a EGC terminal but that is just a pass thru contact and not referenced to the protective circuitry.
 
I believe I checked and double checked everything. Opened every outlet. I did find some receps wired reverse polarity and two skun wires so it wasn't in vain, a recep in a cabinet that had nm with a male cord end that entered the wall space that energized two work table outlets and one that was hidden behind a shelf unit, so I am probably going have to revert to a Gfci breaker.
I have heard of them buzzing before but this is the first time I experienced it. Being I installed 3 others to supply 2 freezers, a fridge, and electric heater makes me want to understand why a bit more.


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The 60 volts induced voltages seems really high to me. I have see higher readings on three wire cables that feed three way switches but then you have the conductors contained in one sheath.


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kwired said:
they will not detect reverse polarity. You would need a ground reference to the device to be able to do that, yes they have a EGC terminal but that is just a pass thru contact and not referenced to the protective circuitry.
Click to expand...

Not arguing the devices arent capable but a simple NC tester can tell the difference between ungrounded and grounded, no ground reference needed.

Family man, a GFCI breaker would be much cheaper/easier than putting GFCI receptacles everywhere, unless they are all on different circuits, or you have MWBCs.
 
Family man said:
I know Gfci' shave came up A lot lately, so it may have been covered, but I rerouted circuit to a garage and separated parts to be dedicated, but when I went to install the lead Gfci in existing circuitry when I tried to reset it it began buzzing loudly, i pushed the test button and it quit but went back to buzzing immediately on trying to reset. This time it was rendered inoperable. I measured 60 volts between the line and load phase conductors. I opened up the devices in the circuit but still had 24 volts on one of the load wires and 26 or so on the other. I am a bit puzzled about where this residual voltage is coming from being it is just two wire nm cable and none of the boxes in the circuit contain any wires from another circuit. And am questioning whether that high of residual voltage could cause damage to the electronics in a Gfci. Any thoughts would be much appreciated.


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Click to expand...
Were you using a low impedance meter? could still be capacitive coupled voltage all you need is other cables in close proximity.

I think you also need to verify which is line and load and even verify you don't have say line side hot connected to load side of device but neutrals are correct this still would give you reset troubles with the newest generation of GFCI's.

Other then that make sure you do have correct supply voltage and haven't damaged the device because of wrong voltage.
 
, Family man, a GFCI breaker would be much cheaper/easier than putting GFCI receptacles everywhere, unless they are all on different circuits, or you have MWBCs.[/QUOTE]

That does bring up an interesting point, because I have always been of the understanding that you can load the other receps off a single Gfci if it is the lead receptacle, but looking through the instructions (which I haven't done in awhile) it shows that you have line to line side of first Gfci than off the load side it feeds another line side of second Gfci, then load going to regular duplex. Is that stating you can only feed one additional receptacle or is that just showing both applications. I know another electrician around here that when it comes to changing two prong receptacles without grounds that he would put one in for every outlet. Panel persay is older push-o-magic style.


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In my case here the actual lead recep is behind shelving unit and would not be considered readily accessible. I didn't even know it existed until I started dissecting there circuit a bit further, but if it was readily accessible I could just put the Gfci there and load the rest of the circuit??


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Family man said:
, Family man, a GFCI breaker would be much cheaper/easier than putting GFCI receptacles everywhere, unless they are all on different circuits, or you have MWBCs.

That does bring up an interesting point, because I have always been of the understanding that you can load the other receps off a single Gfci if it is the lead receptacle, but looking through the instructions (which I haven't done in awhile) it shows that you have line to line side of first Gfci than off the load side it feeds another line side of second Gfci, then load going to regular duplex. Is that stating you can only feed one additional receptacle or is that just showing both applications. I know another electrician around here that when it comes to changing two prong receptacles without grounds that he would put one in for every outlet. Panel persay is older push-o-magic style.


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Click to expand...

Yes, you can do what I bolded.

Doubling up/series wiring GFCI shouldnt cause any problems, aside from wasting money. The second GFCI is only acting as insurance, or a wasted $20, depending on your viewpoint. One GFCI per circuit is fine, tho you could wire everything line side in that box if you just wanted GFCI protection for that one receptacle.

If you wired the second receptacle in that circuit GFCI, that one and everything downstream (if wired to LOAD side terminals) would be protected. If the first receptacle in the circuit is hard to access as you say I wouldnt put one there. But yes, if the one behind the shelves is the first receptacle from the breaker (and was accessible), you could put one there and everything on that circuit would be protected (if wired properly).

afaik, there is no downstream receptacle limit, within reason. If you tried to put 150 receptacles on 700' of wire downstream the GFCI, you'd probably run into problems.
 
Family man said:
I know Gfci' shave came up A lot lately, so it may have been covered, but I rerouted circuit to a garage and separated parts to be dedicated.... coming from being it is just two wire nm cable and none of the boxes in the circuit contain any wires from another circuit.....


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Click to expand...

Can you explain these 2 parts a little further? Does the old nm have an egc? If not are you trying to /reroute/refeed/extend it?

JFletcher said:
afaik, there is no downstream receptacle limit, within reason.
Click to expand...

I don't know either of any rule that limits the number of receptacles on residential gen use circuit.
 
Gfci failing when first energized

user 100 said:
Can you explain these 2 parts a little further? Does the old nm have an egc? If not are you trying to /reroute/refeed/extend it?



I don't know either of any rule that limits the number of receptacles on residential gen use circuit.
Click to expand...

A couple recently bought a house that has a detached garage. All the lighting was on one circuit, and all the recepticles besides a couple over the work bench were on a seperate circuit along with the attic lights. I dropped a new line to two recepticles along the wall that are now serving a freezer and a fridge on one and a electric on another. This Also separated the lead recepticles of the circuit that supplies a chest freezer. I disconnected the wire that went to the from one of these to two door openers and from there went to feed the opposite wall. I then took power from the attic light switch box( thinking at the time it was the lead of the circuit) and ran one of the door openers to supply power to the remainder of the disrupted circuit. Then was going to change the first wall recepticles to a Gfci and that is when it failed. Most of the wiring was in the walls and then I investigated further and found the hidden recepticles.
So to draw out new circuit containing Gfci it would go from panel to recepticle to recepticle then to motion light and from there to switch box in attic. It then branches off to switch lights in attic and two recepticles on above work bench. This is where I ran My wire to and it feeds the door opener outlets and other wall. It then comes back to the attic and ends up in box and capped off. I could of saved myself some wire if I would have known about the box because I could have reenergized it from there.
It was a bit of a maze to figure out. Probably is as clear as mud.


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not knowing the hidden receptacle was there may be a contributing factor to your problems, especially if it were still live and you were trying to connect a line from it to the load side of your GFCI.
 
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