gfci hot tub

[Crw16]

if hot tub has gfi breaker at main panel and disconnect near hot tub has gfi breaker which breaker provides protection in event of a fault? If Hot tub does not require a neutral do we have to put neutral at disconnect near tub? In tub? Can we install 6-2 w/grd from main panel, Where we gfi ckt, and install non gfi breaker at disconnect near tub? Looking for your help and expert insight. Tks

 

[kwired]

if hot tub has gfi breaker at main panel and disconnect near hot tub has gfi breaker which breaker provides protection in event of a fault? If Hot tub does not require a neutral do we have to put neutral at disconnect near tub? In tub? Can we install 6-2 w/grd from main panel, Where we gfi ckt, and install non gfi breaker at disconnect near tub? Looking for your help and expert insight. Tks

If you install GFCI breaker at the tub, the breaker will need a neutral to function properly, you can not tie that neutral to an EGC, will work but is a code violation.

If your tub doesn't require a neutral, you don't have to run one to it and if the GFCI is not at the disconnect at the tub you don't even need to run neutral to the disconnect.

If you have GFCI at panel and at the tub, which one trips (on a ground fault) is a craps shoot. Chances are most the time they both trip but is nothing absolute either.

 

[MAC702]

I think I understood enough of that, but you didn't make it easy.

It doesn't matter which GFI breaker trips first. Both are providing protection. No neutral is required in the entire circuit unless the load requires it. However, most hot tubs use a neutral, so it would be smart to run it now so a replacement doesn't require rewiring.

You need an insulated ground at least from the disconnect to the hot tub, for some reason.

 

[kwired]

I think I understood enough of that, but you didn't make it easy.

It doesn't matter which GFI breaker trips first. Both are providing protection. No neutral is required in the entire circuit unless the load requires it. However, most hot tubs use a neutral, so it would be smart to run it now so a replacement doesn't require rewiring.

You need an insulated ground at least from the disconnect to the hot tub, for some reason.

If there is a GFCI breaker in the disconnect, it will require a line side neutral to power the GFCI logic components. Without power to those components it sort of becomes a standard thermal magnetic breaker.

 

[FionaZuppa]

is the disco a switch only, or is the disco a ocpd, or is it both?

why gfi both ends? no need.

run a 4 wire feeder (3CCC + egc) to the "disco", use std ocpd in main, use gfi in the "disco". dont bond N and egc in the "disco".
size the wire according to tub needs, size ocpd's accordingly.

 

[rnatalie]

However, most hot tubs use a neutral, so it would be smart to run it now so a replacement doesn't require rewiring.

I would disagree with the first clause. Most of the ones I install have no neutral connection. Still, having it present for future use isn't a bad idea.

You need an insulated ground at least from the disconnect to the hot tub, for some reason.

The code is a little touchier on tanks that you immerse personnel into. The idea is the have the direct low impedence connection from this particular item back to the panel without possibility it pick up other stray currents from coming in contact with other grounds. The particulars on this requirement have changed over the last few code revisions however.

 

[FionaZuppa]

I would disagree with the first clause. Most of the ones I install have no neutral connection. Still, having it present for future use isn't a bad idea.

The code is a little touchier on tanks that you immerse personnel into. The idea is the have the direct low impedence connection from this particular item back to the panel without possibility it pick up other stray currents from coming in contact with other grounds. The particulars on this requirement have changed over the last few code revisions however.

What gfci ocpd's are you installing?

 

[MAC702]

If there is a GFCI breaker in the disconnect, it will require a line side neutral to power the GFCI logic components. Without power to those components it sort of becomes a standard thermal magnetic breaker.

That's a good point. Every tub I've done has needed the neutral, and I would always pull it for one anyway, so never gave that any thought. I do, however, find it very difficult to believe they can't make this logic circuit accept the 240V, or even like most electronics these days that can take almost any line voltage in the world. Odd.

 

[kwired]

That's a good point. Every tub I've done has needed the neutral, and I would always pull it for one anyway, so never gave that any thought. I do, however, find it very difficult to believe they can't make this logic circuit accept the 240V, or even like most electronics these days that can take almost any line voltage in the world. Odd.

They can, no idea why they don't, other than they are simply using same components as in other units. 60 amp GFCI breaker (QO version anyway) has a supply side neutral pigtail, does not have a load side neutral terminal - can not be used for a 120/240 load.

 

[rnatalie]

What gfci ocpd's are you installing?

The ubiquitous spa packs around here (the ones with the duck on the case) have GE devices in them.
I've seen a few with CH as well.

 

[jim dungar]

I do, however, find it very difficult to believe they can't make this logic circuit accept the 240V, or even like most electronics these days that can take almost any line voltage in the world. Odd.

I believe, most of the time, the circuit breaker logic does not require the neutral in order to function.
However, most of the time, if not always, the Test circuitry of the breaker is the component that requires a neutral.

 

[kwired]

I believe, most of the time, the circuit breaker logic does not require the neutral in order to function.
However, most of the time, if not always, the Test circuitry of the breaker is the component that requires a neutral.

I remember doing some tests on a 2 pole Homeline one time to see what sort of combinations would trip it, let power through, etc. Did not introduce any thermal-mag trip conditions, presuming those work regardless, but did use a low impedance meter that draws enough to trip GFCI's. Been a while but pretty certain I could not trip on GFCI function without a neutral, whether it be test button or the low impedance meter to ground. Pretty certain it would not trip if whichever ungrounded supply conductor that the "control circuit" comes from is lost either, don't remember which side it was.

Any time handle is "on" whether powered, not powered or partially powered, the contacts are closed but there is no protection if you don't have a "control circuit" was basically my conclusion from those tests.