GFCI in commercial kitchens

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buz

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Just finished doing a restaurant during the final
inspection the inspector informed me that all 120 volt recept. are to be GFIC in the kitchen. I had all recept GFIC except the ones indicated on the print to be IG. These are for monitors, cash reg. and other related equipment. They are located mostly on the serving line where orders are taken. Anything from the serving line back he classifies as kitchen. This is the first time he has brought this up. I do not think IG recept should be required to be GFIC. I also do not think the serving area should be classified as kitchen. Any thoughts or comments
 
Re: GFCI in commercial kitchens

There are currently no exceptions for commercial kitchen GFCI requirements, 210.8(B)(3).

I do not understand why IG outlets would be treated any differently than non-IG circuits.

Using the serving line as the marking point seems like something up to the inspectors discretion. :p It usually is one wall of the kitchen and the kitchen workers have regular access to it.

Bob
 
Re: GFCI in commercial kitchens

Code is code. But the Kitchen GFCI rule is poorly written and the 05 NEC adds language to define a kitchen. See if the inspector will let you use the 05 NEC language.
 
Re: GFCI in commercial kitchens

what would stop the cleaning staff from plugging into that I G receptacle ? I think the gfci should be there for added safety unless for some reason the equipment can not operate on it.
 
Re: GFCI in commercial kitchens

Do they make a GFCI IG receptacle? Seems you would defeat the purpose with the yoke mechanically bonded to the box. I agree that the code is clear but I could see a need for a IG in a commercial kitchen, IE: computerized ordering. You would have to make some kind of "Isolating" provisions to accomplish this, right? I have never been faced with this before.
 
Re: GFCI in commercial kitchens

Originally posted by tom baker:
Code is code. But the Kitchen GFCI rule is poorly written and the 05 NEC adds language to define a kitchen. See if the inspector will let you use the 05 NEC language.
Click to expand...
I agree that the definition will help establish what a kitchen is, but I don't think it will establish where a kitchen ends and where it begins. This is another difficult part of enforcing 210.8(B)(3). I taught an 8 hour class today on articles 240 and 210, and we spent about 30 minutes discussing 210.8(B)(3) and what a difficult provision it is to make heads or tails of.
 
Re: GFCI in commercial kitchens

What is stopping you from supplying the IG receptacles from GFCI breakers. The isolated grounds would terminate in the usual way by connecting them to the IG buss bar.
--
Tom H
 
Re: GFCI in commercial kitchens

like I said Tom, I have'nt thought about it but I don't see why that would'nt work. So simple, just was'nt thinking.
 
Re: GFCI in commercial kitchens

There have been many good comments about this post. I have considered most. I was looking for an economical way out which there may not be. GFIC breakers require a separate neutral which was not pulled. All circuits originated from an IG Panel. Breakers are also quite a bit more expensive than recept. I have not found a manufacture than makes an IG GFIC rect. yet. The thought has crossed my mind to replace the IG with a standard GFIC recpt. All IG recpt. in the building are piped to an IG Panel. It is a wood structure. I'm not sure how much I would compromise the equipment which was intended to be connected to an IG circuit. In the future I'll be a little more careful.
 
Re: GFCI in commercial kitchens

A lot of the serving lines I've hooked up in the past few years have used a blank feed through GFI (no holes to insert a plug) that feeds to the IG receptacle. Granted, you need a 2 gang box instead of a single gang, but this might be a cheaper alternative to a GFI breaker.
 
Re: GFCI in commercial kitchens

We are faced with the exact same situation.When seeing the isolated ground recepts in the kitchen at first, it didn't cross our minds that they had to be gfi protected but they do.Luckily this is a t&m job and we are currently working with the owners to see if iso's are really needed.There is no inexpensive way to install a gfi protected isolated ground receptacle.I also feel like the designers should have a symbol that indicates a gfi protected iso. grnd receptacle that way a red flag goes up and it is not so easily overlooked during takeoff.Even long time electricians need reminded every now and then.
 
Re: GFCI in commercial kitchens

I wired a commercial kitchen with receptacles for the computer equipment, without IG receptacles, using GFCI protected receptacles. So far they have not had a problem.
The receptacles are on their own GFCI breaker protected circuits, back to a panel that also feeds the rest of the kitchen equipment.

Pierre
 
Re: GFCI in commercial kitchens

Pierri, keep in mind that the cash register vendor who is contracted by the restaurant owner does have certain requirements. Many of those vendors expect an IG receptacle so that noise and voltage between neutral and ground are kept to a minimum.

If that vendors starts to have corrupt data or damaged registers then he will look for the cause. If he discovers that IG receptacles where not used (assuming that he requested these to start with) then he will not honor is warranty of maintaining the cash register system. I've been down this road, I've seen it happen.

I truly believe in safety and the intent of the NEC was good, but the wholesale use of GFCI everywhere in the kitchen (in other than dwellings) is a little overkill. The typical homeowner is probably the least educated about electrical safety, but the NEC does not require every 120 volt receptacle in a dwelling kitchen to be GFCI protect. Even the garage area has an exception for "not readily accessible".
 
Re: GFCI in commercial kitchens

Take a look into a commercial kitchen at the end of a long day and see who is usually cleaning the kitchen, and how they are cleaning the kitchen. That has cemented my thoughts as to the safety of the GFCI requirements in these kitchens.
Jerry, you are correct - I wonder who will win that debate :)

Pierre
 
Re: GFCI in commercial kitchens

What about an inspector who requires a GFCI outlet for an outlet feeding a dedicated piece of equipment that is not moveable, but still requires a cord and plug connection.
 
Re: GFCI in commercial kitchens

The inspector would be enforcing that section of the NEC correctly.

210.8(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1), (2), and (3) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel:

(3)Kitchens
Click to expand...
There are no exceptions for commercial kitchen outlets.
 
Re: GFCI in commercial kitchens

Understood, but if you connect a piece of equipment that has a compressor, most often than not, when the compressor cycles on, it will trip out the GFCI outlet. :confused: Any suggestions on avoiding this issue?

[ July 22, 2004, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: sned_ii ]
 
Re: GFCI in commercial kitchens

Why do you think a properly working compressor will trip a GFCI?

Roger
 
Re: GFCI in commercial kitchens

Originally posted by sned_ii:
if you connect a piece of equipment that has a compressor, most often than not, when the compressor cycles on, it will trip out the GFCI outlet.
Click to expand...
Will it really or is that more of a urban legend? :)

In my opinion typical motor loads do not often trip GFCIs.

I have read that in some older refrigeration equipment, the electric defrosting elements had high levels of current leakage. This leakage can trip the GFCI.

[ July 22, 2004, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
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