My local inspetor is trying to tell me that the gfci blank face for the tub must be located within the bathroom that the tub is located. Whereas this is probably more convient for the homeowner I don't beleive this to be true. Could'nt the gfci protection be located as a gfci breaker in the service panel or for that matter in an adjacent room.
gfci location on hydromassgae bath tub
- Thread starter huntinmo1
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bryonb
Member
- Location
- Oklahoma City, OK
Re: gfci location on hydromassgae bath tub
This is very likely a local amendment to the NEC as it is here in Oklahoma City. Our amendment to 210.8(A) says that receptacle type ground-fault circuit-interrupters shall be located in the same proximity as the devices being protected. That leaves the door open for GFCI breakers in my opinion but I have never had a need to push the issue.
This is very likely a local amendment to the NEC as it is here in Oklahoma City. Our amendment to 210.8(A) says that receptacle type ground-fault circuit-interrupters shall be located in the same proximity as the devices being protected. That leaves the door open for GFCI breakers in my opinion but I have never had a need to push the issue.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Re: gfci location on hydromassgae bath tub
Check the instalation instructions I seen some tubs instructions that state supply this tub with a GFCI protected branch circuit.
If it calls for the circuit to be protected then you would have to use a breaker.
Your inspector maybe telling you if you use local GFCI protection then he wants it in the same room as the tub. I do not see a code requirement that the GFCI protection has to be in the same room.
[ March 11, 2003, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: david ]
Check the instalation instructions I seen some tubs instructions that state supply this tub with a GFCI protected branch circuit.
If it calls for the circuit to be protected then you would have to use a breaker.
Your inspector maybe telling you if you use local GFCI protection then he wants it in the same room as the tub. I do not see a code requirement that the GFCI protection has to be in the same room.
[ March 11, 2003, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: david ]
flightline
Senior Member
Re: gfci location on hydromassgae bath tub
This has nothing to do with answering your question, but is of the same ilk. Not wanting to steal your thunder on this topic, I'd like to hear what the rest of you are thinking while on this topic.
We have a number of sub-divisions going up in our town ,and many of the electrical contractors stick a GFI duplex receptacle in the "under-tub" space, where the electrics of the hydromassage tub plug in. I don't know how often these devices trip, if ever. But I am concerned that a homeowner would a) know where to look to reset the tripped device, or b) if they do, I can only envision a naked, damp homeowner trying to pry open the access to the motor and trying to reset the buttons.
Another inspector, a few towns over, [ and one of my former instructors], had just got a local ammendment that required this device to be located within the same room as the hydromassage tub, and {I belive}, to be a faceless type GFI, accessible on a wall much like a receptacle.
I don't think this is too bad of an idea. What do you think?
This has nothing to do with answering your question, but is of the same ilk. Not wanting to steal your thunder on this topic, I'd like to hear what the rest of you are thinking while on this topic.
We have a number of sub-divisions going up in our town ,and many of the electrical contractors stick a GFI duplex receptacle in the "under-tub" space, where the electrics of the hydromassage tub plug in. I don't know how often these devices trip, if ever. But I am concerned that a homeowner would a) know where to look to reset the tripped device, or b) if they do, I can only envision a naked, damp homeowner trying to pry open the access to the motor and trying to reset the buttons.
Another inspector, a few towns over, [ and one of my former instructors], had just got a local ammendment that required this device to be located within the same room as the hydromassage tub, and {I belive}, to be a faceless type GFI, accessible on a wall much like a receptacle.
I don't think this is too bad of an idea. What do you think?
Re: gfci location on hydromassgae bath tub
flightline,
I've heard about the same type of problem. A friend is installing a hydro tub. The instruction say it needs its own circuit with GFCI. It can be a GFCI outlet by the motor. The instructions also say that the GFCI should be tested before use if the tub has not been used for longer that a week. It also says that the GFCI should be tested periodically.
The electrician is trying to find out if the GFCI outlet by the sink could be used to also connect the outlet by the motor.
The faceless GFCI on the wall near the tub sounds like a good solution.
Can you tell me the manufacturer and how to purchase so I can pass it along?
wek
flightline,
I've heard about the same type of problem. A friend is installing a hydro tub. The instruction say it needs its own circuit with GFCI. It can be a GFCI outlet by the motor. The instructions also say that the GFCI should be tested before use if the tub has not been used for longer that a week. It also says that the GFCI should be tested periodically.
The electrician is trying to find out if the GFCI outlet by the sink could be used to also connect the outlet by the motor.
The faceless GFCI on the wall near the tub sounds like a good solution.
Can you tell me the manufacturer and how to purchase so I can pass it along?
wek
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: gfci location on hydromassgae bath tub
The GFCI by the sink can not be used to protect the tub.
The GFCI by the sink can not be used to protect the tub.
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: gfci location on hydromassgae bath tub
I had an inspector tell me that I should be using faceless GFI's in the master baths that have a hydro-tub. His reasoning was that if you install a GFI under the tub near the motor or use a GFI breaker, the chances of the homeowner either testing it or resetting it were a 1000/1 shot (not to mention it is inconvenient as hell). So I've been installing faceless GFI's in master baths with hydro-tubs ever since.
In fact, what I usually do, if I can, is run a 12/3 to the master bath, split off to the hydro-tub with a 12/2 and start my 20 amp bath GFI circuit at the master bath continuing on down off the line side of the GFI to other bathroom GFI receptacles.
Now I do have a friend of mine who starts his 20 amp GFI bath circuit at the first floor powder room, installs a GFI receptacle there and continues off the load side using standard recepacles in the other bath rooms. Talk about being inconvenient !!! But I do believe he is still within the code. It's just not right when you're working in million dollar homes.
Just my opinion.
I had an inspector tell me that I should be using faceless GFI's in the master baths that have a hydro-tub. His reasoning was that if you install a GFI under the tub near the motor or use a GFI breaker, the chances of the homeowner either testing it or resetting it were a 1000/1 shot (not to mention it is inconvenient as hell). So I've been installing faceless GFI's in master baths with hydro-tubs ever since.
In fact, what I usually do, if I can, is run a 12/3 to the master bath, split off to the hydro-tub with a 12/2 and start my 20 amp bath GFI circuit at the master bath continuing on down off the line side of the GFI to other bathroom GFI receptacles.
Now I do have a friend of mine who starts his 20 amp GFI bath circuit at the first floor powder room, installs a GFI receptacle there and continues off the load side using standard recepacles in the other bath rooms. Talk about being inconvenient !!! But I do believe he is still within the code. It's just not right when you're working in million dollar homes.
Just my opinion.
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: gfci location on hydromassgae bath tub
I've also been using faceless GFCI's for a few years. We use faceless type so that homeowner can't plug anything into tub circut. Was just informed by supply house that the faceless type are also included in the new UL listing and they are now going to cost $22.00.
I've also been using faceless GFCI's for a few years. We use faceless type so that homeowner can't plug anything into tub circut. Was just informed by supply house that the faceless type are also included in the new UL listing and they are now going to cost $22.00.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: gfci location on hydromassgae bath tub
Have you ever wondered why faceless gfci's come with plastic cover plate screws? At least the leivington does. I was just reading the paper work that came with it and they are listed for in the tub area mounting and are switch rated I was shocked!(no pun intended)
so this is what 680.22 allows
680.22 Area Lighting, Receptacles, and Equipment.
C) Switching Devices. Switching devices shall be located at least 1.5 m (5 ft) horizontally from the inside walls of a pool unless separated from the pool by a solid fence, wall, or other permanent barrier. Alternatively, a switch that is listed as being acceptable for use within 1.5 m (5 ft) shall be permitted.
huntinmo1 the def. in 680.5 clearly allows for breakers but it could be a local requirment and they could be combinding 680.41 with 680.43(A)(3) as was said. But 680.41 doesn't apply to dwellings as it sezs
680.5 Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters.
Ground-fault circuit interrupters (GFCIs) shall be self-contained units, circuit-breaker or receptacle types, or other listed types.
680.41 Emergency Switch for Spas and Hot Tubs.
A clearly labeled emergency shutoff or control switch for the purpose of stopping the motor(s) that provide power to the recirculation system and jet system shall be installed at a point readily accessible to the users and not less than 1.5 m (5 ft) away, adjacent to, and within sight of the spa or hot tub. This requirement shall not apply to single-family dwellings.
[ March 11, 2003, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
Have you ever wondered why faceless gfci's come with plastic cover plate screws? At least the leivington does. I was just reading the paper work that came with it and they are listed for in the tub area mounting and are switch rated I was shocked!(no pun intended)
so this is what 680.22 allows680.22 Area Lighting, Receptacles, and Equipment.
C) Switching Devices. Switching devices shall be located at least 1.5 m (5 ft) horizontally from the inside walls of a pool unless separated from the pool by a solid fence, wall, or other permanent barrier. Alternatively, a switch that is listed as being acceptable for use within 1.5 m (5 ft) shall be permitted.
huntinmo1 the def. in 680.5 clearly allows for breakers but it could be a local requirment and they could be combinding 680.41 with 680.43(A)(3) as was said. But 680.41 doesn't apply to dwellings as it sezs
680.5 Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters.
Ground-fault circuit interrupters (GFCIs) shall be self-contained units, circuit-breaker or receptacle types, or other listed types.
680.41 Emergency Switch for Spas and Hot Tubs.
A clearly labeled emergency shutoff or control switch for the purpose of stopping the motor(s) that provide power to the recirculation system and jet system shall be installed at a point readily accessible to the users and not less than 1.5 m (5 ft) away, adjacent to, and within sight of the spa or hot tub. This requirement shall not apply to single-family dwellings.
[ March 11, 2003, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Re: gfci location on hydromassgae bath tub
VII. Hydromassage Bathtubs
680.70 General.
Hydromassage bathtubs as defined in 680.2 shall comply with Part VII of this article. They shall not be required to comply with other parts of this article.
Hurk ,
Only part 7 of article 680 applies to Hydromassage Bathtubs
VII. Hydromassage Bathtubs
680.70 General.
Hydromassage bathtubs as defined in 680.2 shall comply with Part VII of this article. They shall not be required to comply with other parts of this article.
Hurk ,
Only part 7 of article 680 applies to Hydromassage Bathtubs
michael nye
Member
- Location
- California
Re: gfci location on hydromassgae bath tub
I've been an Electrician for 25 years and learned from the best of them. Put an recepticle in the motor area and a GFCI protection on the wall with all of the other elect non plug in type so as not to get used as an bathroom recep.
I've been an Electrician for 25 years and learned from the best of them. Put an recepticle in the motor area and a GFCI protection on the wall with all of the other elect non plug in type so as not to get used as an bathroom recep.
flightline
Senior Member
Re: gfci location on hydromassgae bath tub
WK,[WEK]
It seems that most all of the device manufacturers make faceless GFCI devices. While these may not be all, here are links to the ones I could find online. P. S. Perhaps I'm old, but I long for paper catalogs.
Leviton
Eagle
Pass & Seymour
Hubbell
I hope it is of help.
WK,[WEK]
It seems that most all of the device manufacturers make faceless GFCI devices. While these may not be all, here are links to the ones I could find online. P. S. Perhaps I'm old, but I long for paper catalogs.
Leviton
Eagle
Pass & Seymour
Hubbell
I hope it is of help.
Re: gfci location on hydromassgae bath tub
flightline,
Thanks for the info.
Another question. Can another one of these devices be used to protect the fan/light combo over the tub? It sounds better than a GFCI Breaker in the panel for the entire rest of the bathroom. With the GFCI Breaker, if the fan/light combo over the tub trips the GFCI it would also kill the light over the sink and there would be NO light in the room! The person or persons in the tub would be left to fumble in the dark. With the faceless GFCI protecting the fan/light over the tub, they could at least find a lighted switch to turn the light on over the sink. Also, they could test it at the same time they test the other GFCI.
Sound like a plan?
wk
flightline,
Thanks for the info.
Another question. Can another one of these devices be used to protect the fan/light combo over the tub? It sounds better than a GFCI Breaker in the panel for the entire rest of the bathroom. With the GFCI Breaker, if the fan/light combo over the tub trips the GFCI it would also kill the light over the sink and there would be NO light in the room! The person or persons in the tub would be left to fumble in the dark. With the faceless GFCI protecting the fan/light over the tub, they could at least find a lighted switch to turn the light on over the sink. Also, they could test it at the same time they test the other GFCI.
Sound like a plan?
wk
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Gap you should really start a new thread on this as this thread is very old. If you don't know how I can help you with doing it. You can send a PM to me if you need help
- Location
- Massachusetts
This thread is four years old I am closing and starting a new one for gappvembe.
The new thread is More GFCI Questions
The new thread is More GFCI Questions
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