GFCI NEC 2017 210.8(B)(8) or 511.12

[ronmath]

NEC 2017. We are working on an auto body shop and they have a 60 amp 3-phase welder that plugs in. 210.8 seems to require GFCI while 511.12 only calls out 15 and 20 amp 120v outlets. Which applies and is GFCI needed for these outlets or not?

 

[romex jockey]

both, all that is after chap1,2&3 are additional to it

~RJ~

 

[ronmath]

both, all that is after chap1,2&3 are additional to it

~RJ~

I was always under the impression that the later portions, being more specific, over-ruled the earlier portions of the code in cases of conflict? Would be interested to hear an inspectors take on this.

 

[david]

NEC 2017. We are working on an auto body shop and they have a 60 amp 3-phase welder that plugs in. 210.8 seems to require GFCI while 511.12 only calls out 15 and 20 amp 120v outlets. Which applies and is GFCI needed for these outlets or not?

In this case the inspector would have to give weight to the more restrictive rule found in the general requirements 210.8 (B) (8)

 

[ronmath]

In this case the inspector would have to give weight to the more restrictive rule found in the general requirements 210.8 (B) (8)

I'm not disagreeing with you, but why would they have less restrictive (or any listed requirements for gfci) requirements under the specific use if they did not intend to amend 210.8(B)(8), or do you think this is just an error in the code?

 

[david]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but why would they have less restrictive (or any listed requirements for gfci) requirements under the specific use if they did not intend to amend 210.8(B)(8), or do you think this is just an error in the code?

Im not sure if it is an oversight or not,

but for consistent, application of the general rules for GFCI protection in chapters 1-4 (90.3) consider the GFCI rule in article 680 within 20 feet (6ft to 20ft ) of a swimming pool a rec within 6 to 21 feet of the pool still needs GFCI protection because the GEN rule mandates it be protected in addition to the specific rule in article 680

 

[tortuga]

NEC 2017. We are working on an auto body shop and they have a 60 amp 3-phase welder that plugs in. 210.8 seems to require GFCI while 511.12 only calls out 15 and 20 amp 120v outlets. Which applies and is GFCI needed for these outlets or not?

Some states opted not to adopt 210.8 as worded in the 2017. Check your locally adopted NEC.
If your state did not adopt it it may be a good idea to at least use
RDC's or Class B GFCI's IMO provide adequate protection and are more widely available. They trip around 30ma instead of 5ma.
The NEC calls this "ground fault protection of equipment".
Cheers

 

[packersparky]

NEC 2017. We are working on an auto body shop and they have a 60 amp 3-phase welder that plugs in. 210.8 seems to require GFCI while 511.12 only calls out 15 and 20 amp 120v outlets. Which applies and is GFCI needed for these outlets or not?

I would call the State of MN and ask them. I was at an IAEI meeting recently and this subject was discussed extensively. A representative from MN seemed to indicate that 511.12 would override the requirements in 210.8(B), and MN would not require the receptacles in question to have GFCI protection. FWIW, I do not agree with this interpretation.

 

[packersparky]

Some states opted not to adopt 210.8 as worded in the 2017. Check your locally adopted NEC.
If your state did not adopt it it may be a good idea to at least use
RDC's or Class B GFCI's IMO provide adequate protection and are more widely available. They trip around 30ma instead of 5ma.
The NEC calls this "ground fault protection of equipment".
Cheers

It is my understanding that MN adopts the NEC without changes, additions, or omissions.

 

[romex jockey]

I was always under the impression that the later portions, being more specific, over-ruled the earlier portions of the code in cases of conflict? Would be interested to hear an inspectors take on this.

read 90.3 Ron

~RJ~

 

[Adamjamma]

90.3 says the sections 5, 6, and 7 either modify or supplement, but not necessarily over rule... So, guess both are right?

 

[tortuga]

90.3 says the sections 5, 6, and 7 either modify or supplement, but not necessarily over rule... So, guess both are right?

My take is 210.8(B) applies unless 511 specifically says its null.
511.12 builds on 210.8(B)
So If I am wiring a space in a commercial garage (under the scope of 511.1) and I have a room thats not covered under 210.8(B)(8)
lets say there is a "showroom" for the owners classic car and they have a bench where electrical hand tools or portable lighting equipment can be used. 511.12 would require any 125V 15 or 20A receptacles I install to be GFCI protected.
If you put your 60A 3 phase welder plug in that room its not required to be GFCI.