GFCI or not to GFCI...

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

b.toepper

Member
Location
Rio Rancho, NM
***My first post...I apologize if I have not done a thorough enough search for this problem***

I have gone round and round with several engineers / designers about whether GFCI outlets / GFCI circuit breaker(s) are needed during certain situations. 2 examples I run into time and time again are:

1) Receptacles are located near a water source, but located near the ceiling of a room. Such as adding a receptacle for a video camera system, but could be located near a water source just due to the confines of the space and requirements of the job.

2) Using an electrical disconnect near a water source. Often times I have a safety shower which is needed for emergency requirements of the space and will be in close proximity of electrical equipment.

My rationale for the GFCI portion of the NEC is for "things" which a user might plug into the receptacle which would be near the water source. These objects will, more often than not, have a cord which would allow it to be placed to allow water to contact the object. My thinking then allows me to believe that a disconnect is a fixed object, mounted to a wall, thus not needing GFCI protection internal or upstream. If a splash hazard exists or the area is really moist then you can specify 3R, 4, or 4X (depending on the severity).

My question that I pose to this forum, is asking for your thoughts. Is there any part of the code (NEC or otherwise?) that deals with these types of issues? Is any of my thinking incorrect?

Thank you in advance for any / all input you have.
 
The essential information you need can be found in NEC article 210.8. If that does not require a GFCI in the specific application you have in mind, then you don't need to include a GFCI. You can do more than the NEC requires, if you have a concern over personnel protection. But that would be a design decision, not a code issue.

Much depends on the version of the NEC that is in effect in your area. The GFCI rules are different under 2008, 2005, and 2002. Much also depends on whether or not you are working with a dwelling unit. The "within 6 feet of a water source" rule, for example, applies only to dwelling units, and only to certain rooms within the dwelling units.

Welcome to the forum.
 
The proximity of a receptacle near water is not addressed by the NEC.

All GFI requirements are listed in 210.8.

charlie b said:
The "within 6 feet of a water source" rule, for example, applies only to dwelling units, and only to certain rooms within the dwelling units....
Click to expand...

I don't think it's the proximity to water, but the proximity to the grounded nature of a lot of plumbing.


But I agree with charlie.....welcome to the forum!
 
b.toepper said:
My rationale for the GFCI portion of the NEC is for "things" . . .
Click to expand...
Consider that the GFCI portion of the NEC, section 210.8 is titled:
210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.
Click to expand...
 
The idea that GFCI protection is required near water or water sources is not based in fact. GFCI is required in bathrooms, kitchens, basements, garages, outside. What do these areas have in common besides water? Grounded surfaces! Pipes in bathrooms and kitchens are grounded (bonded). The concrete floor in a basement or garage is considered grounded. The dirt outside is "grounded". GFCI is required because of the easy accesibility to alternate ground fault return paths, not neccesarily water.
 
Besides 210.8, the following sections contain regulations on GFCI as related to water:

422.51
422.49
680.71
680.27
680.51
682.15
680.62
555.19
680.57
680.58
680.5
680.22
680.43
 
Dwelling Unit
210.8 (1) Bathrooms, every receptacle in a bathroom needs GFCI protection
210.8 (6) Kitchens where receptacles serve counter tops
210.8 (7) Laundry, utility, wet bar sinks where the receptacles are within 6' of the outside edge of the sink. AHJ can determine whether or not the 6' rule includes height. From what I've seen, at least.

Other than dwelling units (B)
(1) Bathroom
(2) Kitchen
(3) Rooftop
(4) Outdoor
(5) Within 6' of the outside edge of a sink. AHJ can determine whether or not the 6' rule includes height.

Five things to remember:
- These are based on the 2008 NEC. Your requirements may differ.
- There are exceptions to a few of the above listed locations.
- The locations listed in 210.8 are only for 125V 15 and 20A receptacles, so they don't cover panels or other equipment.
- There is no true 6' of water source rule or code requirement, it is only sinks in certain locations.
- The NEC and local code(s) are only a minimum standard. You are free to do more than is required.
 
Equipment with a correctly installed and functional EGC prevents the shock, a GFCI only limits it duration. It is much more likely that cord and plug equipment will lose its EGC than for fixed equipment to lose it, so the most of the code GFCI rules apply only to cord and plug connected equipment.
 
Not sure what code was sighted, but about 8 years ago we had to provide GFCI protection to some remotely ballasted HID light fixtures that were installed with-in 4 feet of a fountain. AHJ was not interested in the physics of how that would work (or not in this case), only that we did it. I am guessing there was some code given at the time as we spent about 65k to make it happen. Now I wish I had more of the details.
 
Thank you all for the warm welcome.


In any of these situations, we have been conservative and designed GFCI within 6' of an open water source, such as the safety shower I referred to in my previous post. My client at the time considered the safety shower having a catch basin at the bottom, thus considered it falling into the "sink" category. They then lumped a 480V, 50A disconnect switch into the same equipment category as a receptacle and said it should be protected upstream with a GFCI breaker. I tried to argue, saying they didn't need to spend the extra money, but quickly realized they were the ones requiring something more stringent and were willing to pay for it. We documented they made the decision and moved on.

But for my own knowledge, I wanted to know if there was anything specifically called out for such scenarios, electrical equipment other than receptacles located in close proximity to water sources (which isn't really the issue, thanks for the correction!). From what it sounds like, as long as I maintain the electrical working clearances and make sure the equipment is rated for wet environments, everyone should be good to go. Correct?

Thank you again to all. You input has been greatly appreciated.
 
pbeasley said:
Not sure what code was sighted, but about 8 years ago we had to provide GFCI protection to some remotely ballasted HID light fixtures that were installed with-in 4 feet of a fountain. AHJ was not interested in the physics of how that would work (or not in this case), only that we did it. I am guessing there was some code given at the time as we spent about 65k to make it happen. Now I wish I had more of the details.
Click to expand...

There would be no GFI protection at the fixture at all. None. Zero. Zip. Nil. Nada. Goose Egg.

For 65 grand, I'd fight tooth and nail for a (legally required) Code reference.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
 
480sparky said:
How can it? It states Other Than Dwelling Units.
Click to expand...

I don't have an 08 code book, but this would contradict "DanZ" posting. Maybe you could clarify this...

210.8(A)(2) and (A)(5) Dwelling Units
The GFCI protection requirements for receptacles in basements, garages, and accessory buildings have been expanded to all 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles regardless of accessibility or movability of an appliance from one location to another.

Four exceptions were deleted: the two from 210.8(A)(2) and Nos. 1 and 2 to (A)(5). Additional text added to 210.8(A)(5) indicates that any receptacles installed under the exception to 210.8(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G). A new FPN refers users to 760.41(B) and 760.121(B) for fire alarm system supply-circuit requirements.


Thanks

KC
 
charlie b said:
The essential information you need can be found in NEC article 210.8. If that does not require a GFCI in the specific application you have in mind, then you don't need to include a GFCI. You can do more than the NEC requires, if you have a concern over personnel protection. But that would be a design decision, not a code issue.

Much depends on the version of the NEC that is in effect in your area. The GFCI rules are different under 2008, 2005, and 2002. Much also depends on whether or not you are working with a dwelling unit. The "within 6 feet of a water source" rule, for example, applies only to dwelling units, and only to certain rooms within the dwelling units.

Welcome to the forum.
Click to expand...


I like and agree with charlies 3rd and 4th sentence. If it's your call, than go with your gut and use code as a minimum. I have gotten grief for that statement before, and I am not looking for it again, just my -2 cents worth:rolleyes:

Once again, welcome to the forum, good to have you.
 
No Hot Links ?

No Hot Links ?

crossman said:
Besides 210.8, the following sections contain regulations on GFCI as related to water:

422.51
422.49
680.71
680.27
680.51
682.15
680.62
555.19
680.57
680.58
680.5
680.22
680.43
Click to expand...


DanZ
Other than dwelling units (B)
(1) Bathroom
(2) Kitchen
(3) Rooftop
(4) Outdoor
(5) Within 6' of the outside edge of a sink. AHJ can determine whether or not the 6' rule includes height.
Click to expand...

No hot links ? ? :rolleyes: You'll are getting soft, and lazy ... :grin:
Edit: Oh and welcome and enjoy the forum!!!
 
kencaz said:
I believe the above includes dwelling units in 2008.

http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cach...+changes+to+2008+NEC&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

KC
Click to expand...

Nope, that's "(B) Other Than Dwelling Units". Dwelling(s) are covered under "(A) Dwelling Units". Both are sub sections of 210.8 in the 2008 NEC.

cadpoint said:
No hot links ? ? :rolleyes: You'll are getting soft, and lazy ... :grin:
Click to expand...

Nope, no hot links, I'm using the Real Read free version of the 2008 NEC, since I'm cheap. :roll: It helps that I don't have to use it out of the office. :grin:

b.toepper said:
but quickly realized they were the ones requiring something more stringent and were willing to pay for it. We documented they made the decision and moved on.
Click to expand...

If they're willing to pay for more or better protection, more power to both of you! :grin:

Welcome to the forum.
 
480sparky said:
There would be no GFI protection at the fixture at all. None. Zero. Zip. Nil. Nada. Goose Egg.

For 65 grand, I'd fight tooth and nail for a (legally required) Code reference.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Click to expand...

Exactly....

I think I'm going to ask around and see if any of the EE's remember how this was enforced. I'll let you all know if I come back with a nice tale to tell. :grin:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top