GFCI protection dryers

C

Captorofsin1

Member
Occupation
Electrical contractor
Hello everyone. I had just been tasked with replacing a three-prong dryer outlet.

As we all know, 2020 NEC (didn't take effect in Florida until 2023) requires that when swapping out a dryer receptacle in a laundry room, I have to upgrade to GFCI protection.

I did that. I landed both hots (one on each leg of the breaker ) and landed the pigtail off the GFCI to the neutral/ground bar in the panel.

Every time I plugged up this homeowners dryer (brand new. Didn't even turn it on, just plugged it in) the GFCI breaker immediately tripped.

I've been going back and forth on another electrical form. Some people are telling me that I need to take the bear ground and land it on the neutral (on the GFCI breaker) or that I need to run a whole new three wire (four wires and a neutral) circuit. It just doesn't seem feasible to have to run a hole in a circuit just to swap out of receptacle.

Any insight would be great.
 
H

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Not going to work, if you remove the neutral/ground bond on the dryer, then the dryer would be ungrounded. You should be grandfathered in and leave the three wire as is. Technically if the neutral is bare, it didn’t meet code to begin with when it was originally installed.
 
C

Captorofsin1

Member
Occupation
Electrical contractor
hillbilly1 said:
Not going to work, if you remove the neutral/ground bond on the dryer, then the dryer would be ungrounded. You should be grandfathered in and leave the three wire as is. Technically if the neutral is bare, it didn’t meet code to begin with when it was originally installed.
Click to expand...

Believe it or not, the inspector just emailed me back. He was telling me that some dryers have specific instructions where you can remove the bond between the neutral and the ground (on the back of the appliance). He said if there's no instructions (so probably apply to a lot of people that have had their dryer for many years) then you would have the choice of buying a new dryer or running a three-wire circuit.

All that nonsense just so you can swap out a receptacle. That's beyond stupid.

I replied to the inspector's email. I explain to him I understand that he doesn't make the rules he just enforces them. I told them that I think that the Florida building commission should amend the new GFCI requirements for ranges and dryers just for new construction.
 
B

brycenesbitt

Senior Member
Location
United States
Captorofsin1 said:
I replied to the inspector's email. I explain to him I understand that he doesn't make the rules he just enforces them. I told them that I think that the Florida building commission should amend the new GFCI requirements for ranges and dryers just for new construction.
Click to expand...
The new NEC draft is out, and section 210.8 is open for comment on this very topic.
...
I've seen just about every possible miswiring of 3 vs. 4 wire dryer cords and equipment, and frankly
I'd rather be done with the entire concept of the neutral. It's done wrong so often, and with the global manufacturing every vendor can produce a 240V only hot/hot/ground dryer with no need for neutral and fewer ways of miswiring it.
 
C

Captorofsin1

Member
Occupation
Electrical contractor
brycenesbitt said:
The new NEC draft is out, and section 210.8 is open for comment on this very topic.
...
I've seen just about every possible miswiring of 3 vs. 4 wire dryer cords and equipment, and frankly
I'd rather be done with the entire concept of the neutral. It's done wrong so often, and with the global manufacturing every vendor can produce a 240V only hot/hot/ground dryer with no need for neutral and fewer ways of miswiring it.
Click to expand...
"Draft"? The new NEC has been out for a minute..
 
W

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
If you have 2 hots and a bare ground with a normal dryer, you probably have a code violation and will trip GFCIs.

Code previously permitted the neutral to bond the frame of the dryer, in other words the neutral served as a circuit conductor and as the EGC. This circuit setup, if done properly, may be grandfathered in. But this setup will always trip a GFCI.

On top of this, a bare ground wire used as the neutral (as opposed to a neutral used as EGC) was always a code violation and not grandfathered in. (Sort of exception: the bare neutral of type SE cable was allowed as both neutral and ground.)

You pretty much have to replace the circuit if GFCI is required .
 
R

robertd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
electrical contractor
I misread the original post, I thought he had installed a new 4 wire circuit.
If you have a 3 wire dryer circuit on a GFCI and the dryer touches the washer, which I would assume
is grounded, won't that also trip a modern GFCI, since it would then see the neutral wire grounded?
As other have pointed out, if you have NM wire, a 3 wire would not have passed code, ever, SE cable
would have been fine. All of this assumes this is the SE panel, and not a subpanel.
 
R

robertd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
electrical contractor
Eddie702 said:
yes . Bare neutral in SE cable was fine. If you ran Romex it had to be a 10/3
Click to expand...
I've seen houses built in the 60's or 70's with 10/3 or 8/3 w/ground romex dryer circuits where the ground
connected to the box, but a 3 wire plug was installed. The ground was the reduced size ground used back then,
so maybe using the neutral as the ground for the dryer wasn't such a bad thing in that case.
 
S

suemarkp

Senior Member
Location
Kent, WA
Occupation
Retired Engineer
That bare wire needs to go to the load side neutral terminal of the GFCI. If the cable is SE and from a main panel (not sub panel), that would be grandfathered legal and should work. You may need to tape that bare wire white in the panel because if it touches bare metal on a cable clamp, it may trip the GFCI. Removing the bonding jumper on the dryer has pros and cons. Leaving it is more correct with a 3 wire feed. But since its on a GFCI, if the frame provides a decent path back to the panel, that's a separate neutral path and will cause the GFCI to trip. Removing the jumper removes the safety bonding from the dryer frame, but the GFCI should save a person when being shocked by tripping.

Best solution is to install a proper 4 wire circuit. But that may be difficult and expensive. Or eliminate the GFCI and do it the old school way with a bonding jumper between neutral and the dryer frame.
 
Little Bill

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrician
hillbilly1 said:
If I remember correctly, the neutral had to be insulated, SE was not allowed because the neutral was not insulated.
Click to expand...
The SE could have the bare neutral, but had to originate from the main panel, not a subpanel. This is for dryers and stoves and a 3-wire connection.
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
robertd said:
I've seen houses built in the 60's or 70's with 10/3 or 8/3 w/ground romex dryer circuits where the ground
connected to the box, but a 3 wire plug was installed.
Click to expand...
I usually saw 10-3 NM w/o ground used. In fact, range circuits were often two 10-3s w/o gr. in parallel.
 
B

brycenesbitt

Senior Member
Location
United States
Captorofsin1 said:
Some people are telling me that I need to take the bear ground....
Click to expand...
I leave bears on the ground.

Another option you have is something like the Summit SLD242W
Which is perfectly happy and safe with a 3-Wire NEMA 6-15 or 6-20 outlet. No neutral required.

Depending on your local costs, the new dryer may save construction money, and certainly will save hard electric $$$$ (if it lasts).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top