GFCI protection for pool pumps question.

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PetrosA

PetrosA

Senior Member
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Lancaster, Pennsylvania
Feeling pretty stoopid tonight. I don't normally touch pool equipment and I haven't done a service change in a home with a pool in a long time, if ever. I did a panel upgrade last week and just landed the two 240V receptacle circuits on 2 pole 20s like they were in the old panel, but something was telling me to check this out. I've read the GFCI requirements in 680.22 (B) (2008 NEC) and I see the pump circuits need class A GFCI protection. Would there have been a time in the last 20-30 years when this would NOT have been the case? Does the fact that the receptacles weren't GFCI protected indicate that they were never code compliant? If they were compliant at installation, do I need to upgrade to GFCI protection during the panel upgrade? Now that I have doubts, I'm asking for help. Thanks!
 
It used to be only 120V pool pump circuits required GFCI protection. The 2011 NEC expanded that to cover 240V pumps too. Hard wired or receptacle doesn't matter.

If this area has adopted the 2011 NEC, then you need to spring for two 2-pole GFCI's. If cost is an issue, you could use the cheaper 50A SPA GFCI breaker as a GFCI feeder to a subpanel with your 2 20A pump circuits. But this may not be a good design depending on the total circuit length of all the pump circuits. One gruond leak anywhere will kill that feeder, so it could be a nuisance. It also won't save you the GFCI for the pool light, as those are required to be done at the branch circuit level.
 
Most likely the pumps did not require GFCI protection at the time they were installed. I don't see why you would need to install GFCI's now just because you changed the panel.
 
The 2005 NEC only required gfci for receptacles that fed the pool pump that were rated 15 & 20 amp 125V - 250v single phase. 2008 required all 125-250v pool pumps whether cord and plug or direct wire to be gfci
 
PetrosA said:
Feeling pretty stoopid tonight. I don't normally touch pool equipment and I haven't done a service change in a home with a pool in a long time, if ever. I did a panel upgrade last week and just landed the two 240V receptacle circuits on 2 pole 20s like they were in the old panel, but something was telling me to check this out. I've read the GFCI requirements in 680.22 (B) (2008 NEC) and I see the pump circuits need class A GFCI protection. Would there have been a time in the last 20-30 years when this would NOT have been the case? Does the fact that the receptacles weren't GFCI protected indicate that they were never code compliant? If they were compliant at installation, do I need to upgrade to GFCI protection during the panel upgrade? Now that I have doubts, I'm asking for help. Thanks!
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YES. In my jurisdiction If you upgrade a panel then it must be up to code the best you can. There are certain situations you simply cannot bring up to code but this pool has people in it. The biggest problem is a GFCI 2 pole is about $500.00 for a 30A. I don't know what a 20A will run you.
 
AKsparky1 said:
YES. In my jurisdiction If you upgrade a panel then it must be up to code the best you can. There are certain situations you simply cannot bring up to code but this pool has people in it. The biggest problem is a GFCI 2 pole is about $500.00 for a 30A. I don't know what a 20A will run you.
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Either someone "saw you coming" :D or the shipping is costing you about $400.

They are no where near $500 here for a 2-pole 30A GFCI.:happyno:
 
They're about $100 here each so two GFCI breakers cost more than the Cutler Hammer 200A MBP and a large portion of the breakers I installed already. The situation now is this: The inspector got there and passed the install without the GFCI breakers while I was explaining the situation to the customer (he went straight to the basement through the Bilco doors while I was upstairs talking to the owner). Once the sticker was up, the customer really had very little motivation (other than whatever fear I instill in her) to pay an extra $220 for the breakers (which I had already picked up and had on the truck). I offered to install them at cost with no charge for my labor. I can't afford to just give over $200 in breakers away. If the cost were half of that, I'd have installed them on my dime for peace of mind. If she doesn't want to pay for them, I'm kind of stuck with the status quo, albeit with an inspection sticker...
 
PetrosA said:
They're about $100 here each so two GFCI breakers cost more than the Cutler Hammer 200A MBP and a large portion of the breakers I installed already. The situation now is this: The inspector got there and passed the install without the GFCI breakers while I was explaining the situation to the customer (he went straight to the basement through the Bilco doors while I was upstairs talking to the owner). Once the sticker was up, the customer really had very little motivation (other than whatever fear I instill in her) to pay an extra $220 for the breakers (which I had already picked up and had on the truck). I offered to install them at cost with no charge for my labor. I can't afford to just give over $200 in breakers away. If the cost were half of that, I'd have installed them on my dime for peace of mind. If she doesn't want to pay for them, I'm kind of stuck with the status quo, albeit with an inspection sticker...
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Your supply house won't take them back?
 
wow...

wow...

yeah we all know that electrocutions in pools are a rare occurrence, but...
if it ever did happen would the $200 you are eating be a good excuse to the judge?
or your insurance company? or OSHA?
I'm not suggesting anybody is right or wrong here...just a thought
 
SparkyHC said:
yeah we all know that electrocutions in pools are a rare occurrence, but...
if it ever did happen would the $200 you are eating be a good excuse to the judge?
or your insurance company? or OSHA?
I'm not suggesting anybody is right or wrong here...just a thought
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I would bet that 99% of the pools that we swim in are not gfci protected. Remember that many commercial pools are 3 phase. There is no gfci protection for that. Since gfci is limited to 15 and 20 amps only it seems to be the maintenance issue that may not get down around residential pools thus the requirement for gfci.
 
SparkyHC said:
yeah we all know that electrocutions in pools are a rare occurrence, but...
if it ever did happen would the $200 you are eating be a good excuse to the judge?
or your insurance company? or OSHA?
I'm not suggesting anybody is right or wrong here...just a thought
Click to expand...

I'm aware that the optimum solution would be for the customer to want to pay for the upgrade. The second optimum solution (for safety's sake) would be for me to eat the $200. It's not an easy decision at all for me, and I will certainly not forget this lesson. I will also be looking for a less costly solution to get us both near the optimum.
 
PetrosA said:
I'm aware that the optimum solution would be for the customer to want to pay for the upgrade. The second optimum solution (for safety's sake) would be for me to eat the $200. It's not an easy decision at all for me, and I will certainly not forget this lesson. I will also be looking for a less costly solution to get us both near the optimum.
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The real optimum solution is for the customer to have a choice on of how they wish to spend their money. They did have that choice and they made their decision.

Logically if you are really worried about safety and want to spend some money you purchase a bullet proof vest because your odds of getting shot are better than your odds of getting electrocuted in the pool.
 
growler said:
Logically if you are really worried about safety and want to spend some money you purchase a bullet proof vest because your odds of getting shot are better than your odds of getting electrocuted in the pool.
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But it is so hard to swim with a bullet proof vest on. :(
 
PetrosA said:
I'm aware that the optimum solution would be for the customer to want to pay for the upgrade. The second optimum solution (for safety's sake) would be for me to eat the $200. It's not an easy decision at all for me, and I will certainly not forget this lesson. I will also be looking for a less costly solution to get us both near the optimum.
Click to expand...

There is a reason we pull permits. It's to cover us financially. The inspector signed off on it. She doesn't want it. You can't let other people's decisions be your responsibility. There are a number of things you could do on your way home to increase the safety of those situations, are you gonna stop by all those properties and spend your money to help them, too?

If so, I commend you, but it's not realistic unless you have enough to live on and just want to help other people.
 
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