GFCI required for load side taps in 2020?

mmaulik

Member
2020 requires all exterior outlets to be GFCI protected. The breaker you install on a load side tap, powers the controls and radio 24/7, so it is utilization equipment. GFCI required??
 

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
CMP-4 says Solar PV is not a Service...and does not recognize incidental loads associated with the system. With that, I would say no...but let us know what your AHJ says.

Also...Massachusetts is the only State under the 2020, and they have deleted 210.8(F) by amendment.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
2020 requires all exterior outlets to be GFCI protected. The breaker you install on a load side tap, powers the controls and radio 24/7, so it is utilization equipment. GFCI required??
So far as I've noticed, GFCI requirements apply only to receptacles (technically not the same as an outlet), and not to all 'utilization equipment'. So if you need to install an outdoor receptacle as part of your installation, it needs to be GCFI. If you don't, then you don't. The load side tap part is completely irrelevant.
 

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
JB...

He is referring (i think) to the new 2020 requirement for GFCI protection on all outdoor outlets (for dwellings) per 210.8(F)
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
JB...

He is referring (i think) to the new 2020 requirement for GFCI protection on all outdoor outlets (for dwellings) per 210.8(F)
I reviewed the 2020 code before making my previous post. It makes no difference. All of it still refers to 'receptacles' only. It's not really a new requirement either, just expanded in scope.
 

kwired

Electron manager
I reviewed the 2020 code before making my previous post. It makes no difference. All of it still refers to 'receptacles' only. It's not really a new requirement either, just expanded in scope.
210.8(A) refers only to receptacles

Now take a look at (F). Typical air conditioner unit at most dwellings will require GFCI even if hardwired. This is not a mistake in wording either it was intended. Apparently too many non qualified people were getting shocked/electrocuted when working on such equipment or something of that nature drove them to word it like they did.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
210.8(F) refers to "OUTLETS" not receptacles
Got it. Missed that section. My apologies.

However, for equipment that includes a utility interactive inverter, look at both 705.12(D), and 705.32, and then 90.4 paragraph 3. I believe that, practically speaking, we're likely to end up back where what I said above still stands.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Got it. Missed that section. My apologies.

However, for equipment that includes a utility interactive inverter, look at both 705.12(D), and 705.32, and then 90.4 paragraph 3. I believe that, practically speaking, we're likely to end up back where what I said above still stands.
The inverter here is not/does not have an art 100 defined outlet, it is a source not a load.
 

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
The inverter here is not/does not have an art 100 defined outlet, it is a source not a load.
Well...I have and will continue to argue that it is an Outlet considering an Interactive Inverter consumers power, although not much.
As the OP stated "powers the controls and radio 24/7".

An Inverter here is not a "source", but equipment (utilization IMO) converts a source from DC-AC
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Well...I have and will continue to argue that it is an Outlet considering an Interactive Inverter consumers power, although not much.
As the OP stated "powers the controls and radio 24/7".

An Inverter here is not a "source", but equipment (utilization IMO) converts a source from DC-AC
Well, it can be both. I see the sticky point the OP is bringing up. But I refer back to my previous statements, with added comments.

look at both 705.12(D), and 705.32, and then 90.4 paragraph 3. I believe that, practically speaking, we're likely to end up back at ...
if you need to install an outdoor receptacle as part of your installation, it needs to be GCFI. If you don't, then you don't, [or else a reasonable inspector will point you towards exactly which breaker you can use that is fully compliant]. Receptacles that are part of factory assembled listed equipment wouldn't count, 110.3(B).
 

kwired

Electron manager
Well...I have and will continue to argue that it is an Outlet considering an Interactive Inverter consumers power, although not much.
As the OP stated "powers the controls and radio 24/7".

An Inverter here is not a "source", but equipment (utilization IMO) converts a source from DC-AC
Not utilization equipment IMO.

Utilization Equipment.
Equipment that utilizes electric energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating, lighting, or similar purposes
.

It consumes small amount of power, but primary purpose is not any of those mentioned in the definition.

A basic transformer consumes a small amount of power also - but that is just an inefficiency and not it's primary purpose. A generator could also be be misunderstood here if you don't look at UE definition.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
The inverter here is not/does not have an art 100 defined outlet, it is a source not a load.
I spoke about this issue to two members of CMP 4, one of which is the chairman, and they both say the same thing. The solar system is a source and not a load and cannot be an outlet.
 

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
I spoke about this issue to two members of CMP 4, one of which is the chairman, and they both say the same thing. The solar system is a source and not a load and cannot be an outlet.
Agree the solar array is the source.

But the Interactive Inverter along with Data Acquisition System (DAS) equipment takes current to operate. These are cumulative parts of a Photovoltaic (PV) System.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Agree the solar array is the source.

But the Interactive Inverter along with Data Acquisition System (DAS) equipment takes current to operate. These are cumulative parts of a Photovoltaic (PV) System.
Two things. One is as long as a PV system is producing energy, the monitoring only subtracts a minuscule bit from the flow. The other is that if a system has a net power flow of thousands of Watts when it is running and consumes a couple of Watts when it is not, it's a source. I believe in a common sense interpretation of the NEC. I'm an engineer, not a lawyer.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Agree the solar array is the source.

But the Interactive Inverter along with Data Acquisition System (DAS) equipment takes current to operate. These are cumulative parts of a Photovoltaic (PV) System.
So does a transformer, but that is not the primary function of the unit. You don't use that small amount of power used for "electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating, lighting, or similar purposes".

A generator has controls, excitation circuit, etc. as well that use a small amount of power, but is not the primary function of the unit either.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Agree the solar array is the source.

But the Interactive Inverter along with Data Acquisition System (DAS) equipment takes current to operate. These are cumulative parts of a Photovoltaic (PV) System.
The position of the two panel 4 members is that there is nothing that is part of a solar system that is an outlet.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
So does a transformer, but that is not the primary function of the unit. You don't use that small amount of power used for "electronic, electromechanical, chemical, heating, lighting, or similar purposes".

A generator has controls, excitation circuit, etc. as well that use a small amount of power, but is not the primary function of the unit either.
If an inverter uses a small amount of utility power it's most definitely for electronic purposes. But utilization equipment seems to me to be off topic if we're talking about outlets.
 

kwired

Electron manager
If an inverter uses a small amount of utility power it's most definitely for electronic purposes. But utilization equipment seems to me to be off topic if we're talking about outlets.
Utilization equipment is in the definition of outlet, it is very much on topic. The primary intent of the inverter is not focused around the small amount of current utilized for control of the unit, primary intent of a transformer is not focused on the small amount of energy that is lost due to inefficiencies, primary intent of a generator is not focused on the small amount of current that supplies the excitation field and other controls.

Outlet.
A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
 
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