GFCI requirements, HELP!

[bthielen]

A few years ago I had remodeled my bathroom. As part of my lighting circuit, I included a ceiling exhaust fan to remove excess humidity. When it was inspected I learned that our inspector required the lighting circuit, in particular the exhaust fan, to be GFCI protected. He indicated that it had to do with its proximity to the bathtub/shower. Now, I have a neighbor that is remodeling his bathroom and during conversation I mentioned that he may need to install GFCI protection for his exhaust fan. I have access to the code book so I told him I would look up the requirements. I have not been able to locate the code that specifies this requirement. Can anyone direct me to the appropriate code?

So far I have referenced 410.4 describing what may be space limitations. Incidentally, can someone define what a ?Paddle? fan is? Never heard this term used before. I have also referenced 680.43 (B) and 680.71, but am not sure how these may apply. I reviewed 210.8 (A) but this refers to receptacles. Does a lighting fixture outlet fall within the description of a receptacle and therefore, all bathroom lighting fixtures also require GFCI protection? This doesn?t seem to hold true since lighting outlets in kitchens, garages, etc. don?t seem to require it.

Thank you,

Bob

 

[inspector 102]

Re: GFCI requirements, HELP!

The requirement for GFCI protection of a bathroom exhaust fan may be a requirement by the manufacturer when located inside a tub/shower unit. Many times the contractor will place the fan outside the compartment to remove it from a damp location. I check the label inside the housing to verify the manf. requirements.

 

[ryan_618]

Re: GFCI requirements, HELP!

Inside of the exhaust fan you will find that there is a receptacle outlet. As per 210.8, it is required to be GFCI protected.

I'm not saying that this is the true intent of 210.8, but it is a receptacle and it is in a bathroom.

 

[steve66]

Re: GFCI requirements, HELP!

I don't think the NEC requires bathroom vents to be GFCI protected. Your inspector may have been using a local rule, or he may of been mistaken. Like inspector 102 said, check the manufacturer's instructions.

A paddle fan is a ceiling mounted fan. For example:
hunter fans selection guide

A lighting outlet would not be a receptacle (unless of course it is a cord and plug connected light). My understanding is that a recptacle is a specific type of outlet, but the reverse would not be true.

Article 680.71 would not apply to a fan. Article 680.43B would apply only if a spa or hot tub were installed. To see if you have a spa or hot tub, look at the definitions at the begining of article 680. If the tub is designed to be drained every use, it is not a hot tub or spa.
Steve

 

[bthielen]

Re: GFCI requirements, HELP!

Ryan,

I think you may have hit the nail on the head. The fan in my assembly is a cord and plug situation. I didn't consider that.


Inspector 102,

Great advise! I will recommend it.


Steve66,

Thanks for the link. I guess I just didn't put two-and-two together. I am humbled.

Thanks all,

Bob

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: GFCI requirements, HELP!

Ryan,

(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
(1) Bathrooms

Note my emphasis on the word "in". How can a receptacle within a recessed housing be considered in the location when it is covered with a finish trim that is not intended to be removed during normal operation?

 

[electricman2]

Re: GFCI requirements, HELP!

Let me see if I have this right. If you remove the trim cover from a ceiling mtd. exhaust fan the motor is connected to a single receptacle with a short cord to facilitate its installation or replacement. Am I hearing that this makes GFI protection to be required? If so, there are thousands of non-GFI protected fans out there. Lets let common sense prevail here. :roll:

 

[ryan_618]

Re: GFCI requirements, HELP!

Al: Again, I'm not saying that the intent is to protect it, but again, it is a receptacle and it is in the bathroom.

BTW: I would never red-tag this in a million years, but the inspector is well within his/her rights to require it.

 

[bthielen]

Re: GFCI requirements, HELP!

Al,

I see your point. In my situation, I certainly do not use the receptacle in the fan assembly to plug in my vacuum cleaner. The only justification or explanation I can come up with is that the receptacle is indeed inside the fixture however, the fixture is also IN the bathroom and perhaps this is where the judgement of the inspector comes into play.

Just a thought,

Bob

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: GFCI requirements, HELP!

What I'm trying to point at is that the finish surface of the room is the edge of the location. Otherwise one starts to discuss how far outside the finished surface is not in the location.

Consider a standard recessed light housing (say a Halo H7IC) in the middle of the ceiling of the bathroom. The area above the ceiling is unfinished attic where I have a receptacle placed for my convenience.

If I drop the lamp housing through the roughin mounting frame (I only have to remove 3 screws), and then, if I stick my arm up through the 6?" openning in the ceiling and can reach the attic convenience receptacle, then the receptacle is "in" the bathroom? ? ! ! [sarcasm]Is the limit of "in the bathroom" how far my arm can reach into a mechanical area? The code doesn't say. . .so I guess that means all the receptacles in the area that the recessed light openning interfaces with must be in the bathroom.[/sarcasm]

I believe Bob's AHJ is making his own code and deserves to be called on it.

 

[bill addiss]

Re: GFCI requirements, HELP!

I've heard about GFCI protection being required by inspectors before, but have never heard the receptacle inside the fan unit mentioned.

I would guess that this Inspector is misinterpreting something.

Bill

 

[tom baker]

Re: GFCI requirements, HELP!

Clearly a bathroom requires GFCI protection:

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.
FPN: See 215.9 for ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel on feeders.
(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
(1) Bathrooms

However the required receptacle for a bathroom must be with in 3ft of the edge of the basin.
210.52
(D) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, at least one wall receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900 mm (3 ft) of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop.

The receptacle in the fan is a motor disconnect not a personnel receptacle.

 

[ctroyp]

Re: GFCI requirements, HELP!

Originally posted by tom baker:

The receptacle in the fan is a motor disconnect not a personnel receptacle.

Bingo...

 

[wire nut]

Re: GFCI requirements, HELP!

My NuTone heat and exhaust bathroom ceiling fans have non-grounded recepticals built in which are easily accessible if the grill is removed. If your inspector is having a problem with these so-called non-GFI protected fan recepticals, why is he not having a fit that these recepticals do not provide grounding?

Personally, I think your inspector needs a reality check.

John
New Jersey

 

[bthielen]

Re: GFCI requirements, HELP!

The inspector that required that I provide the protection on my circuit has since retired and now we have a new inspector in our area. It wasn't a real big deal. All I did was install a GFCI circuit breaker. While it was about 4x the cost of the regular circuit breaker, it didn't make or break my remodeling budget at the time. I could understand however, as contractors trying to make a living, any additional unnecessary cost could be an issue for you. It does appear that there is more to this than I originally thought. Perhaps I will suggest my neighbor contact our local inspector to see what he will require. He is very helpful this way with us do-it-yourselfers, which is very much appreciated. It would be nice to know the answer before parts are purchased so he can save unnecessary expense and possibly rework.

Thanks for all your thoughts,

Bob

 

[ryan_618]

Re: GFCI requirements, HELP!

Tom: I understand your point, but I don't think the 3' rule applies to GFCI protection. 210.8 makes no reference to "required" receptacles.

Again guys: I wouldn't red tag it, but.....

 

[rb]

Re: GFCI requirements, HELP!

From the UL Electrical Appliance and Utilization Equipment Directory, Product Category Electric Fans:

"Fans intended to be mounted over tubs and showers have been evaluated for such purposes and are marked "Acceptable for use over a shower or tub when installed in a GFCI protected circuit."

If the fan is installed over the tub the listing will require GFCI protection. If the fan is installed outside the tub enclosure GFCI protection is not required. The receptacle provided for the fan motor is part of the listed appliance. Install the appliance according to its listing and labeling there should be no problem.

 

[wildman]

Re: GFCI requirements, HELP!

everybody is having inspector problems....step 1...don't install no exhaust fan in that bathroom...cut you a window in there you can raise....the humidity will leave a lot quicker and the smell from last night chilli will give the neighbors something to talk about! step 2. Install that gfci breaker and please that inspector. after he signs off on the job, go get a refund on that gfci and buy a standard one... he is happy...you are happy! believe it or not, I have had customers do step 1 and step 2 to avoid the extra cost of those pesky gfci's.
thought a little humor might help out here! I "always" abide by the ahj rules...unless it runs into a lot of dough....then I appeal to his superior. sometime I win..sometime not. to appeal is your call!

 

[tonyi]

Re: GFCI requirements, HELP!

Since they are ungrounded, and ungrounded recpts haven't been allowed in new construction for several decades, IMO these things aren't really recpts anymore - just a connector used internally as part of the manufacturing process of a UL listed assembly. Really no different than a StaCon.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Re: GFCI requirements, HELP!

Maybe its the screws that hold the recessed light housing in the roughin frame that make the receptacle in the unfinished attic immediately above the bath recessed luminaire "outside of the bathroom location." (see my example earlier in this thread.)

Consider the lowly Broan 678 Exhaust Fan:

The lampholder housing and the grille are held to the recessed motor assembly by an acorn nut on machine bolt that most of the time requires pliers to remove.

[ December 04, 2003, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: al hildenbrand ]