Gfci TIA for Ranges

Merry Christmas
Makes sense if they are pushing blame for AFCI/GFCI failure (neusence tripping) as transients from surge. Also all the sensitive electronics inside the AFCI/GFCI breakers.

Add a twist, So if the panel box is located in an area that would normally require AFCI protection (ie living room) adding the surge protection devices like I've seen that are wired, to seperate external (to the panel box) device does the SPD require AFCI protection?
......and then you need an SPD for the AFCI protecting the SPD......🤔
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Makes sense if they are pushing blame for AFCI/GFCI failure (neusence tripping) as transients from surge. Also all the sensitive electronics inside the AFCI/GFCI breakers.

Add a twist, So if the panel box is located in an area that would normally require AFCI protection (ie living room) adding the surge protection devices like I've seen that are wired, to seperate external (to the panel box) device does the SPD require AFCI protection?
I don't see the SPD as an outlet, so AFCI protection of the SPD is not required.
 

brycenesbitt

Senior Member
Location
United States
While I don't agree with some of the new requirements for GFCI protection, especially central A/C equipment, in most case there will not be any issues other than the cost of the GFCI.

There is an issue other than cost: energy. Each one draws 1 to 2 Watts of power, 24/7/365, times millions of devices.
We're talking megawatts of power over the life of the rule, multiple nuclear power plants.

That's balanced against potential savings in materials should a GFCI, well, prevent a fire. If that happens.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
There is an issue other than cost: energy. Each one draws 1 to 2 Watts of power, 24/7/365, times millions of devices.

I know that it is possible to build an electromagnetic device that triggers on ground fault in the multiple amp range, and I believe it is possible in the 100s of mA range.

Does anyone know if it is practical to build a non electronic or at least self powered class-A gfci?

Jon
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
I know that it is possible to build an electromagnetic device that triggers on ground fault in the multiple amp range, and I believe it is possible in the 100s of mA range.

Does anyone know if it is practical to build a non electronic or at least self powered class-A gfci?

Jon
actually, i'm an a mission to do just that Winne

~RJ~
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Wow. Pure electromagnetic tripping with a _single_ turn of the 'sense' coil. That might actually trip at 5mA if you had 20 turns of the sensing wire.

-Jon
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Wow. Pure electromagnetic tripping with a _single_ turn of the 'sense' coil. That might actually trip at 5mA if you had 20 turns of the sensing wire.

-Jon


Still a bit complex from an unlatching sense, but FAR more reliable. No surge susceptibility or electronics to fail.
 

yuhong

Member
Location
Burnaby, BC
I still think there is no good reason for GFCI on hard wired (other than maybe 680 applications) items and on cord and plug connected items that utilize something other than 5-15/20 or 6-15/20 configurations.
I once suggested a compromise for EV charging that allow a circuit breaker near the outlet to be used in place of GFCI for NEMA 14-50 and like, which is similar to what is used for RV parks.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I once suggested a compromise for EV charging that allow a circuit breaker near the outlet to be used in place of GFCI for NEMA 14-50 and like, which is similar to what is used for RV parks.
That is typical for RV parks simply because you generally run a feeder circuit out to supply multiple sites and you need a branch circuit device before you supply the outlet. AFAIK 2020 will require GFCI on that as well.
 
Location
Wyoming
Another code change that was promoted by the manufacturers, without any testing or research to determine if their product is compatible with the existing product. ( appliances)

if this is really a necessary “safety device” why aren’t the equipment manufacturers providing GFCI protection in their equipment, rather than expecting the electrical contractor to do their research and development for them.
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
I don't see the SPD as an outlet, so AFCI protection of the SPD is not required.
Is an SPD "utilization equipment" as stated within the codes definition of an outlet? Not really making arguement for AFCI on a SPD but does the internal circuitry use power or just monitor it? I know several have an indicator light that shows it is functioning so that would seem to be using power all be it minimal.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Is an SPD "utilization equipment" as stated within the codes definition of an outlet? Not really making arguement for AFCI on a SPD but does the internal circuitry use power or just monitor it? I know several have an indicator light that shows it is functioning so that would seem to be using power all be it minimal.
It remains my opinion that the SPD is not utilization equipment. Indicator lights do not make it such, and it does no useful "work".
 
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