GFCI tripping question

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This is my first post on this forum and I'll say I'm sorry if I don't get the protocals right the first time. My question: I have a machine that has a motor and a solenoid valve on the same 110v power circuit which is plugged into a home style GFCI outlet. When the motor starts the GFCI stays set. When the solenoid is activated the GFCI some times trips. The GFCI's that trip are the newer more sensitive one now becoming common in Florida. Other less sensitive (More standard, off the shelf) GFCI's don't trip. The machine was checked on a hiPot tester at 1250 volts and a trip set point of 5mA and found no problem. Could the problem be due to the very quick high inrush current from the solenoid saturating the current sensing transformer in the GFCI or some capacitive leakage current or something else. The solenoids are mounted to the machines metal frame which is grounded. Thanks to everyone for thier replies in advance.:)
 

mdshunk

Senior Member
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Right here.
If you hi-potted a 110V solenoid coil, with its associated fine wire windings, at 1200 volts, you may well have created your own problem. Replace the valve coil.
 
This has happened on quite a few units, we think a problem with bad solenoids has been eliminated by swapping parts (solenoids) and testing units that trip the GFCI's. These units are even run plugged into GFCI's before they leave and find a home in the real world. Something to do with the new more sensitive type GFCI's that are getting more common.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Illinois
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retired electrician
vettedrivr said:
Something to do with the new more sensitive type GFCI's that are getting more common.
I am not aware of any change in the sensitivity for GFCIs. There have been some changes in the UL standard for GFCIs, but they did not change the sensitivity.
 
I don't know the name of the GFCI manufacturer, when I find out I'll post it. My understanding at this point is that there are changes going through in the wiring code in Florida, not on the books yet, that will require a more sensitive GFCI be installed at some future time. Contractors anticipating this change have started installing them already and those are the ones we are seeing the trouble with. Does anyone know if a solenoid turning on looks any different to a GFCI than other inductive loads?
 
L

Lxnxjxhx

Guest
If you graph coil current vs. time, it builds up slowly due to the R/L time constant, with bumps in the line due to the armature moving. There should not be a start-up current surge with inductive loads (other than motors).

The GFI senses differential current, so a solenoid coil in free space should never trip the GFI because the current out would always equal the current in.

Solenoid capacitance to ground would have to be 0.1 uF to get 5 mA at 120v to trip. That seems like very high capacitance.

Perhaps the actual wiring is not as you think it is. Otherwise, if it's not a bad GFI, then I can't help ya'!
 
L

Lxnxjxhx

Guest
Barking up the wrong tree?

Barking up the wrong tree?

We know that motor + solenoid = GFI trip

And, I think if you turned on the solenoid first, the GFI would only trip after the motor is turned on.

And, solenoid only = probably no trip.

I'm thinking they both contribute to the tripping condition, and I would apportion blame as 90% to the motor and 10% to the solenoid.

You could measure the capacitance from the motor winding to the motor shell with a C meter, or an ammeter and a calculator.

Me, I'll ask fractional hp motor makers about this problem. There may also be noise suppression filters in the motor which would have capacitance to ground.
 

winnie

Senior Member
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Springfield, MA, USA
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Electric motor research
1) My _hunch_ is that if the GFCI is tripping, then there is likely a real fault to ground somewhere. While you test these solenoid valves using a high voltage, it is possible that the fault only exists while the solenoid is moving or energized; testing for this would require quite a bit more effort than simply using a hipot.

2) As the OP suggests, a GFCI does not trip on a difference in current. It is _supposed_ to trip on a difference in current, but the method used is to run all of the circuit conductors through a sense coil, and the GFCI actually trips if sufficient net current is measured on this sense coil. If the sense coil is not perfectly balanced, then a sufficiently large _balanced_ current can cause the GFCI to trip. I doubt that this is the issue, but it is possible that the inrush current on the solenoid is causing this sort of trip.

3) On langjahr's comment about the current build up in a solenoid, a slight correction is in order. 'Inrush' is most certainly possible on AC solenoids, similar to transformer inrush. The R/L time constant of a solenoid for AC use is very short, and the current is limited by the AC impedance, not the DC resistance. The AC impedance assumes that the core is not saturated, and that the flux is smoothly alternating from a negative peak to a positive peak. But at startup, the core may have no flux in it, but the AC cycle demands a full + to - flux change. This will cause the core to saturate, significantly lowering the inductance. During this instant, very high current will flow. So the current starts low, and builds up over the course of 1/2 cycle to much greater than normal, and then dies down to the steady state case.

4) Langjahr's suggestion to look for capacitance to ground is another plausible plan for investigation. With larger motors on VFDs, I've seen 10's of ma of current to ground, with no faults and no insulation failures.

5) You might consider using a logging oscilloscope connected to a clamp on current sensor, and metering around your system to locate any 'zero sequence' or 'ground fault' current flows. Basically you would use the scope and the current sensor in the same fashion as the sense coil in the GFCI, to see what causes current spikes that look like ground faults.

-Jon
 
Thank you all for your input. We will continue to investigate and if we find the cause of the problem I will post it. If anyone else has any suggestions or ideas I would be greatful to hear them. Once again, thanks!
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
vettedrivr said:
If anyone else has any . . . ideas
Speaking to your question about the "new" GFCIs, the UL requirements for the GFI were changed, what, about two years ago.

The new devices have added electronics to assist with mis-wires (hot, neutral and ground mis-terminations) as well as a feature that electrically locks out the receptacle if the 5 mA sensing circuitry and trigger no longer work. The trip sensitivity, however, is unchanged.

I wonder if you might be thinking of the Jan. 1, 2008, requirement for the installation of the Combination Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter (CAFCI). The manufacturers were slow in getting the product to the store shelves, and various jurisdictions have delayed requiring them. The CAFCI, as well as its predecessor (AFCI), have a behavior that is like a GFCI, not at 5 mA but a bit higher - ~20 to 30 mA, along with additional behavior involving arcing. With respect to arcing, the CAFCI is much more sensitive than the AFCI.

In short, if this motor and solenoid machine is likely to be used in the "living areas" of dwellings, the CAFCI breakers that will be required in those living areas will have to co-operate with your machine.
 
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