GFCI wiring

[whowadat]

Hello, working inside of a double wide mobile home wherein there is 3 GFCI outlets all on the same circuit. One in each bathroom, and one mounted on the outside of the home. One bathroom had GFCI outlet go bad (approximately 17 years old) and opened the circuit to the 2nd bathroom and the single outlet outside. The broken GFCI was wired as the first outlet in the circuit properly protecting all other outlets.....and the lights, light switches, and exhaust fan in the 2nd bathroom.

So power going into the first GFCI outlet was on the "line" side, and wire leaving was on the "load" side. The two other GFCI outlets were both wired with the line going in and the line going out both mounted to the "line" side of the outlet....why would someone of done that, and what is the result of such a double "line" wiring situation ?Should I re-wire them with the wires leaving the outlet onto the "load" side. Since the first outlet is in effect protecting everything downstream, should I replace the two other GFCIs....one near a bathroom sink and the other mounted outdoors.....with regular outlets ?

I think I read somewhere wherein more than one GFCI wired into a circuit would limit the voltage at the end of the circuit. I was wondering if that is why they might of wired the GFCIs incorrectly.....

Mike

 

[Jerramundi]

If they wired it with GFCI line-load protection (line power in, load power out) and still installed GFCI's in the other locations, it is because they don't fully understand GFCI's. There's zero reason to do this.

One correct way is to install GFCI line-load protection (line power in, load power out) at the first opening... and then install regular receptacles in the other openings... and you've achieved GFCI protection at each location.

The other correct way to do this is to install GFCI's in every location, but it's more expensive, and pigtail a jumper to the line side only at each location.

Since the GFCI's are already in place... I would go to each location... take the line side and load wires out, splice them together appropriately (hot to hot, neutral to neutral), and add a third pigtail wire off the hot the neutral splices to the line side of the GFCI devices at each location.

Note well, that it's also a code violation to attach that outdoor receptacle to the bathroom circuit.

 

[whowadat]

Well, I wired them back up the way I found them....both electrical lines in the box connected to the "line" side of the GFCI outlet in the 2nd bathroom and the outside outlet. The first GFCI in the circuit I wired back together as it was....power in on the "line" side and power out on the "load" side. An outlet tester shows all three GFCIs are wired correctly and the tester will trip all three GFCIs......if anyone can answer my questions above or who know of a safety reason for not re-wiring them up the way I found them, please feel free to comment.....thanks

 

[whowadat]

If they wired it with GFCI line-load protection (line power in, load power out) and still installed GFCI's in the other locations, it is because they don't fully understand GFCI's. There's zero reason to do this.

One correct way is to install GFCI line-load protection (line power in, load power out) at the first opening... and then install regular receptacles in the other openings... and you've achieved GFCI protection at each location.

The other correct way to do this is to install GFCI's in every location, but it's more expensive, and pigtail a jumper to the line side only at each location.

Since the GFCI's are already in place... I would go to each location... take the line side and load wires out, splice them together appropriately (hot to hot, neutral to neutral), and add a third pigtail wire off the hot the neutral splices to the line side of the GFCI devices at each location.

Note well, that it's also a code violation to attach that outdoor receptacle to the bathroom circuit.

I agree with all your points, this is why I reached out for comments because it made no sense to me. Keep in mind this is a double wide mobile home, the outside outlet is on the exterior wall with the 2nd bathroom, and although I could see them putting that outlet on the 2nd bathroom circuit, why an approved outdoor box and outlet wasn't used I'm not sure. (it doesn't look like an aftermarket DIY job) I don't understand why one outlet in the first bathroom, and the entire circuit of the 2nd bathroom, are on the same 15 amp breaker in the panel. I wonder if the manufacturer of the mobile home designed it that way or when they set these homes up at the trailer park if the crew putting it together did this themselves for some reason.

I'm assuming it was manufactured this way, the master bedroom and that first bathroom are all on the same circuit...with the exception of that single GFCI outlet. It has a "Garden Tub/Whirlpool" on a separate breaker by itself, and two smoke detectors on a separate 15 amp circuit......seems like room for another circuit or two.....guess they just wanted to save a buck. (of course they wasted 40 bucks by adding two more GFCIs to the circuit)

So by adding the pigtail I would in effect just be putting that single GFCI in parallel on that circuit rather than in series as it is currently wired. I would not be changing the level of protection because that very first GFCI is protecting the entire circuit downstream.....when it pops everything shuts offs. A GFCI in the 2nd bathroom is really just for looks....and at 20 bucks a regular 1.00 outlet would offer the exact same protection....correct ?

 

[whowadat]

I wanted to add.....when I first became aware of this problem the idea that a GFCI in a bathroom on the opposite side of the mobile home was the culprit was not my first inclination....I of course checked all the GFCIs mechanical breakers but none of the three worked. I assume because there was no power going to them. So I thought I needed to find out where this circuit started and/or ended, and work my way through the circuit looking for power. (my thought being that either one of the GFCIs were bad or the breaker in the box was bad - it appeared mechanically sound)

I made the wrong choice by starting in the 2nd bathroom rather than the master bedroom bathroom which shared a wall with the electrical panel. However, when I was checking voltages with my meter, if I turned on the breaker at the panel, each of the three GFCIs (including the one which I have replaced and now everything works fine) all read like 8-9 volts...i.e...9 volts was getting past the 1st GFCI and could be measured at the two other GFCIs....how is that possible, and why 8-9 volts ???

Thanks

 

[Jerramundi]

I did answer your questions above... except for the one about repetitious protection.

why would someone of done that...

Because they don't fully understand GFCIs.

Should I re-wire them with the wires leaving the outlet onto the "load" side.

No.

Since the first outlet is in effect protecting everything downstream, should I replace the two other GFCIs....one near a bathroom sink and the other mounted outdoors.....with regular outlets ?

You can, yes. That is one way to achieve the required protection.

 

[Jerramundi]

I should clarify that I'm referencing GFCI requirements for brick and mortar homes.
Codes have always been less restrictive for mobile-type dwellings. That could be your answer as to why it was done this way originally.

I would still argue it shows a nonsensical understanding of how GFCI's work and you were right to be confused by it if not outright laugh at it.

But apparently the new 2020 NEC now requires GFCI protection for mobile and manufactured homes to be equal to that of stick-built and modular type dwellings (550.13(B)).

Stick built being a phrase for typical brick and mortar construction. Why the NEC went with this phrasing is odd to me. Seems intentionally confusing... but basically GFCI requirements are now universal.

 

[Jerramundi]

@whowadat Give this a read:

GFCI Protection Requirements: Mobile & Manufactured Homes 2020 NEC – 550.13(B) – JADE Learning

The 2020 NEC now recognizes that GFCI protection for mobile and manufactured homes must be equal to that of stick-built and modular type dwellings. Construction Codes, in general, have always been less restrictive for mobile-type dwellings. This may be because mobile homes are often titled with...

www.jadelearning.com

I can't speak to the circuit layouts as they apply to mobile homes. If you're interested I can tell you how they apply to brick and mortar homes.
The key take away is that where the GFCI protection is required now pretty much universal.

 

[Jerramundi]

The GFCI protection in a bathroom is based on proximity to (1) a sink and (2) the shower/tub area. You may still require line-load protection in each bathroom for other things in the bathroom (e.g. an exhaust fan or light over the shower/tub)... but the first GFCI does NOT need to protect the rest of the circuit if there are GFCI receptacles in the other locations.

In brick and mortar construction, we typically do 1 of 2 things.
(1) Bring a dedicated 20A circuit to each bathroom
(2) The GFCI's in multiple bathrooms can be on the same circuit, but it's ONLY allowed to power the receptacles, not the lights or exhaust fan.

 

[whowadat]

What about reading 8-9 volts downstream when the breaker was turned on....including the one that went bad ? Why would a GFCI let some voltage pass....does it have something to do with the electronics in the GFCI itself ? Thanks

 

[whowadat]

The GFCI protection in a bathroom is based on proximity to (1) a sink and (2) the shower/tub area. You may still require line-load protection in each bathroom for other things in the bathroom (e.g. an exhaust fan or light over the shower/tub)... but the first GFCI does NOT need to protect the rest of the circuit if there are GFCI receptacles in the other locations.

In brick and mortar construction, we typically do 1 of 2 things.
(1) Bring a dedicated 20A circuit to each bathroom
(2) The GFCI's in multiple bathrooms can be on the same circuit, but it's ONLY allowed to power the receptacles, not the lights or exhaust fan.

Right, the first one could of been wired in parallel with pig tails.....

 

[Jerramundi]

So by adding the pigtail I would in effect just be putting that single GFCI in parallel on that circuit rather than in series as it is currently wired.
The only way you get "downstream protection" is with a line-load set-up.

Correct. But this just provides the protection at the receptacle itself. No longer downstream.

That very first GFCI is protecting the entire circuit downstream.....when it pops everything shuts offs.

No, not if you change the wiring as I have suggested. The first GFCI would no longer be protecting anything downstream, just the GFCI receptacle itself would be GFCI protected, which is all that is required unless you have an exhaust fan or light over the shower that requires GFCI protection.

A GFCI in the 2nd bathroom is really just for looks

No, not if you change the wiring as I have suggested. The GFCI in the second bathroom would now be providing the required protection at that particular location/receptacle. It is required. Not "just for looks"

 

[Jerramundi]

Right, the first one could of been wired in parallel with pig tails.....

Yes.. but only if there are GFCI's in the other remaining locations.

If there are no GFCI's in the other remaining locations, such as using regular receptacles, you would need a type of line load set-up like you have/had.

 

[Jerramundi]

What I'm suggesting would remove the redundancy, but there are still issues with how it's all laid out, unless you're allowed to put outdoor receptacles on a bathroom circuit in mobile homes... I honestly don't know.

If it were me I would be wiring it like I do a single family home, but mobile home installers may not like that as the requirements are stricter.

The only thing that's changed as far as the code is concerned, is that GFCI protection location is now nearly universal, how the circuits are allowed to be laid out may still be different for mobile homes.

 

[Jerramundi]

However, when I was checking voltages with my meter, if I turned on the breaker at the panel, each of the three GFCIs (including the one which I have replaced and now everything works fine) all read like 8-9 volts...i.e...9 volts was getting past the 1st GFCI and could be measured at the two other GFCIs....how is that possible, and why 8-9 volts ???

If they are still reading 8-9 volts with the breaker off... either (1) your breaker is going bad... or (2) something is backfeeding the circuit.

Turn the breaker off and check the voltage between the breaker terminal screw where you would normally connect your hot wire and the system neutral. If you still get a reading, the breaker is bad.

If no reading at the breaker, but still at the outlets, you have a backfeed issue.

 

[ptonsparky]

GFCIs protection was not as restricted as it is now. We could pick up an outside receptacle from about any where, excluding SA circuits. I would regularly drop out of the bathroom or garage GFCI to an outside recept. Also catch an outside GFCI on the bedroom circuit as I went buy. Double wides and mobile homes are/ were under different codes.

 

[Jerramundi]

Double wides and mobile homes are/ were under different codes.

Apparently the GFCI protection for mobile homes has been unified with brick and mortar under 2020. I just learned this now. But I have no reason to look at mobile home requirements aside from answering the OP.

 

[hillbilly1]

The GFCI protection in a bathroom is based on proximity to (1) a sink and (2) the shower/tub area. You may still require line-load protection in each bathroom for other things in the bathroom (e.g. an exhaust fan or light over the shower/tub)... but the first GFCI does NOT need to protect the rest of the circuit if there are GFCI receptacles in the other locations.

In brick and mortar construction, we typically do 1 of 2 things.
(1) Bring a dedicated 20A circuit to each bathroom
(2) The GFCI's in multiple bathrooms can be on the same circuit, but it's ONLY allowed to power the receptacles, not the lights or exhaust fan.

All of the brick mortar houses I have went behind, they looped all the bathrooms together on one 20 amp circuit, I agree they should be dedicated, but with tract housing, the ropers don’t! Always getting a call about the outside receptacles at the front and rear doors not working, it’s 99% of the time they came off a gfi in the garage!

 

[Little Bill]

Mobile/Manufactored homes are not under the NEC, they are under HUD. When we wire a service for a new MH, the inspector can only check the work we did for the service. He can't check any inside wiring. Now future work done by an electrician is a different story. The work would need to be permitted and inspected via NEC codes adapted in the area. The MH are all wired in a factory/warehouse in an assembly line fashion. There is no rhyme or reason to how some are wired.
@whowadat
You're voltage readings are most likely phantom or ghost voltages. Especially if you're using a digital volt meter. There is nothing to worry about there.
As far as your GFCI situation, I would just wire everything to the line side in the 1st bath, and wire it line-load in the 2nd one to cover the outside receptacle. That's because you said you already bought/installed new GFCIs. Wiring them like I said would prevent losing power to all three on a fault.

 

[Jerramundi]

As far as your GFCI situation, I would just wire everything to the line side in the 1st bath, and wire it line-load in the 2nd one to cover the outside receptacle. That's because you said you already bought/installed new GFCIs. Wiring them like I said would prevent losing power to all three on a fault.

Why would you wire line-load to protect the outdoor receptacle via the 2nd bathroom GFCI when there are already GFCI's in all three locations?
Just parallel pigtail off the circuit to each receptacle's line side. Then protection is local to each respective outlet.

With your suggestion, they could end up having to reset the 2nd bathroom GFCI to restore power to the outdoor receptacle. That's just goofy.