Is there an NEC non-dwelling unit requirement for receptacles located "within 6' of a water source" to be GFCI-protected? I'm working commercial construction in Virginia, which is still under the '99 code, and I can't find it in the '99 or '02 code. My foreman is saying that the current job falls under the requirements of the '96 code, but he isn't giving any code reference so I think he may be blowing smoke. Was there ever such a requirement? I'm thinking this is another urban code legend.
GFCI within 6 feet of water source?
- Thread starter Brian M
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: GFCI within 6 feet of water source?
It's not in '99 or '02, and I doubt it was ever a requirement. My problem is with the phrase "water source." I'm not sure what is meant by that.
It's not in '99 or '02, and I doubt it was ever a requirement. My problem is with the phrase "water source." I'm not sure what is meant by that.
dana1028
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco Bay area
Re: GFCI within 6 feet of water source?
Up until 1993 (210-8) used the 6' rule.....receptacles (on counters) within 6' of kitchen sinks must be GFCI protected.
Up until 1993 (210-8) used the 6' rule.....receptacles (on counters) within 6' of kitchen sinks must be GFCI protected.
physis
Senior Member
Re: GFCI within 6 feet of water source?
I've heard similar assertions. I Haven't been in the industry long enough to know a lot of history but I'm having a hard time accepting that GFI requirements are becomeing more relaxed.
I'd want a code reference too.
But aside from that, I'm all for GFI 's everywhere.
I've heard similar assertions. I Haven't been in the industry long enough to know a lot of history but I'm having a hard time accepting that GFI requirements are becomeing more relaxed.
I'd want a code reference too.
But aside from that, I'm all for GFI 's everywhere.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: GFCI within 6 feet of water source?
Its a misconception to think gfci protection directly relates to receptacles near wet sources. The true need for gfci's stem from locations where it is likely the equipment plugged-in will be hand-held appliances. If you look at most of the locations where gfci protection is required, these are locations where hand held tools, food preparation, and personal hygiene applicances would be most likely used.
GFCI protection in an area such as a living room in my opinion would have very limited benefit.
Its a misconception to think gfci protection directly relates to receptacles near wet sources. The true need for gfci's stem from locations where it is likely the equipment plugged-in will be hand-held appliances. If you look at most of the locations where gfci protection is required, these are locations where hand held tools, food preparation, and personal hygiene applicances would be most likely used.
GFCI protection in an area such as a living room in my opinion would have very limited benefit.
Re: GFCI within 6 feet of water source?
I don't have any objection to seeing GFCI's used, but I have been trying to sort out what is actually required by code and what is simply a commonly-repeated requirement that is no longer (or never was) code.
This area has a lot of masters and j'men who were grandfathered-in when Virginia began licensing. Many of them have never actually studied the code, but rather they absorbed their knowledge of it through what they heard from others through the years.
Then when I started in the trade in 2000 I often heard that this or that was required by "code". Now I'm trying to sort out fable from fact, with my own experience beginning under the '99 cycle. So some "false" rules may have once been true, and some may have only been spec'd on a particular job and incorporated in the beliefs of those on that job as being mandated by the NEC rather than that particular engineer.
The info about 210.8 prior to '93 explains why many still hold that belief. Web searches show that the rule has been incorporated into current job specs under some juristictions.
I don't have any objection to seeing GFCI's used, but I have been trying to sort out what is actually required by code and what is simply a commonly-repeated requirement that is no longer (or never was) code.
This area has a lot of masters and j'men who were grandfathered-in when Virginia began licensing. Many of them have never actually studied the code, but rather they absorbed their knowledge of it through what they heard from others through the years.
Then when I started in the trade in 2000 I often heard that this or that was required by "code". Now I'm trying to sort out fable from fact, with my own experience beginning under the '99 cycle. So some "false" rules may have once been true, and some may have only been spec'd on a particular job and incorporated in the beliefs of those on that job as being mandated by the NEC rather than that particular engineer.
The info about 210.8 prior to '93 explains why many still hold that belief. Web searches show that the rule has been incorporated into current job specs under some juristictions.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: GFCI within 6 feet of water source?
Job specs are another reason some code requirements are thought to be. It is in the spec, therefore it is rerquired by code.
Job specs are another reason some code requirements are thought to be. It is in the spec, therefore it is rerquired by code.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: GFCI within 6 feet of water source?
A typical commercial carpentry work shop would not be required to have GFCIs regardless of the dozens of hand held tools.
A home work shop in an unfinished basement (damp cement floor) would require GFCIs.
A plug up under an eve for Christmas lights is required to have GFCI protection even though it is unlikely to have a tool plugged into it.
IMO the GFCI requirements are all about personal protection around damp or wet locations.
Where is a GFCI required in a area not likely to be wet?
I feel that is a long stretch to say.
A typical commercial carpentry work shop would not be required to have GFCIs regardless of the dozens of hand held tools.
A home work shop in an unfinished basement (damp cement floor) would require GFCIs.
A plug up under an eve for Christmas lights is required to have GFCI protection even though it is unlikely to have a tool plugged into it.
IMO the GFCI requirements are all about personal protection around damp or wet locations.
Where is a GFCI required in a area not likely to be wet?
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: GFCI within 6 feet of water source?
I will agree that they go hand-in-hand, meaning you have a possible wet or damp location along with direct and intimate contact of the equipment user. While it is true there does not seem to be a gfci requirement that doesn't seem to involve water, there are also alot of equipment and appliances and particular situations where water is present and gfci protection is not required.
Dishwashers, diposers, compactors, ranges, washers, dedicated equipment in garages, etc... are all cord-and-plug appliances that for some reason doesn't require gfci protection yet they can and will be assoicated with a wet location. I feel it is because they are not typically held in your hand while being used.
I will agree that they go hand-in-hand, meaning you have a possible wet or damp location along with direct and intimate contact of the equipment user. While it is true there does not seem to be a gfci requirement that doesn't seem to involve water, there are also alot of equipment and appliances and particular situations where water is present and gfci protection is not required.
Dishwashers, diposers, compactors, ranges, washers, dedicated equipment in garages, etc... are all cord-and-plug appliances that for some reason doesn't require gfci protection yet they can and will be assoicated with a wet location. I feel it is because they are not typically held in your hand while being used.
chicar
Senior Member
- Location
- Lancaster,Pa
Re: GFCI within 6 feet of water source?
210.8 I believe you will find your answer there.[2002]
210.8 I believe you will find your answer there.[2002]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: GFCI within 6 feet of water source?
Didn't the commercial kitchen GFCI requirement have to do with a floor washers electrocution from touching a malfunctioning refrigerator?
That said I do not entirely disagree with you.
My only problem was with this.
Have a great Holiday, Bob
120 volt cord connected refrigerators and equipment in commercial kitchens, vending machines.....GFCI required. Tough to hold in your hand.
Didn't the commercial kitchen GFCI requirement have to do with a floor washers electrocution from touching a malfunctioning refrigerator?
That said I do not entirely disagree with you.
My only problem was with this.
I do not think you will find a GFCI requirement that does not directly relate to water or the potential for wet / damp surfaces.
Have a great Holiday, Bob
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: GFCI within 6 feet of water source?
"Dishwashers, diposers, compactors, ranges, washers, dedicated equipment in garages, etc... are all cord-and-plug appliances that for some reason doesn't require gfci protection yet they can and will be assoicated with a wet location. I feel it is because they are not typically held in your hand while being used."
I also believe that the above mentioned items are factory made and tested. Once installed, they are not moved around. There is less danger from the use of these as far as the CMP are concerned, and I believe the data will back that up.
Hand tools on the other hand are constantly being moved around and abused - with the cords exposed to all kinds of conditions - with plenty of data showing the bodybag count.
"Dishwashers, diposers, compactors, ranges, washers, dedicated equipment in garages, etc... are all cord-and-plug appliances that for some reason doesn't require gfci protection yet they can and will be assoicated with a wet location. I feel it is because they are not typically held in your hand while being used."
I also believe that the above mentioned items are factory made and tested. Once installed, they are not moved around. There is less danger from the use of these as far as the CMP are concerned, and I believe the data will back that up.
Hand tools on the other hand are constantly being moved around and abused - with the cords exposed to all kinds of conditions - with plenty of data showing the bodybag count.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: GFCI within 6 feet of water source?
I am not sure what you getting at Pierre.
I agree more accidents happen with 'hand tools' than say a dishwasher.
But the CMPs do not require GFCIs for 'hand tools' unless they are being operated in locations subject to damp floors or potentially wet locations.
I am not sure what you getting at Pierre.
I agree more accidents happen with 'hand tools' than say a dishwasher.
But the CMPs do not require GFCIs for 'hand tools' unless they are being operated in locations subject to damp floors or potentially wet locations.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: GFCI within 6 feet of water source?
How would you guys explain commercial kitchens? When you look at the substantiation that got that requirement into the code in 2002, it included data of fatalities from fixed in place equipment, including a refrigerator.
How would you guys explain commercial kitchens? When you look at the substantiation that got that requirement into the code in 2002, it included data of fatalities from fixed in place equipment, including a refrigerator.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: GFCI within 6 feet of water source?
Pick up a sub zero and throw it on top of the chef after you shove him in the slop sink
Pick up a sub zero and throw it on top of the chef after you shove him in the slop
sink
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: GFCI within 6 feet of water source?
I think someone mentioned that as they where wondering the same thing.
physis
Senior Member
Re: GFCI within 6 feet of water source?
My thinking is that where GFI is a good idea is in proximity to a return path with a lot of area. Cement slabs, puddles, bathtubs, roofs, basements. Those are all places where it's hard to get disconnected from ground/neutral if you become energized.
But aside from that the exceptions to 210.8 do indicate a preoccupation with cord and plug attached non permanent equipment.
My thinking is that where GFI is a good idea is in proximity to a return path with a lot of area. Cement slabs, puddles, bathtubs, roofs, basements. Those are all places where it's hard to get disconnected from ground/neutral if you become energized.
But aside from that the exceptions to 210.8 do indicate a preoccupation with cord and plug attached non permanent equipment.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: GFCI within 6 feet of water source?
Originally posted by iwire:
I think someone mentioned that as they where wondering the same thing.
- Status