gfci

[greg volz]

When installing a outdoor jacuzzi on a 220volt single phase gfci there is no neutral due to transformer in controls. Two phases go to the gfci and bare ground goes back to ground bar and neutral on gfci is left blank? Also why are fountains,small pools above ground and jacuzzis all gfci protected and inground pools not gfci?

 

[bphgravity]

Re: gfci

Are you talking about internal equipment wiring within the spa or a cord-and-plug connection to a GFCI receptacle? As far as your second question goes, the reason for the GFCI protection is because of the cord-and-plug use with these types of equipment. Per 680.22(5), even inground pool equipment is required to be GFCI protected if cord-and-plug attached to a receptacle.

 

[greg volz]

Re: gfci

A local jacuzzi shop owner sells a certain type jacuzzi 240v single phase that requires a 2pole 50amp gfci circuit breaker. He claims that every electrican hooks his equipment up wrong. He was trained by the factory and knows his equipment and insists that it be hooked up accordingly. There is no neutral to his equipment. Two phase wires going to the circuit breaker and the ground terminated to the neutral on the circuit breaker. The neutral pig tail on the circuit breaker to the neutral on the panel. He's been doing this for 11 years. The second question about the inground pool was put to the electrical chief. The code book has not caught up with putting gfci's on pool pumps( not cord and plug connected) was his reply. Also a client has this 480volt pump out 200 feet by his boat dock with the head in the water about 15 feet deep. Its gfci protected but this is this a risk that could be hazzardous assuming that all things are man made and will fail? He wants all his electrical upgraded like the two open 12 x12 pvc junction boxes with red wire nuts under the dock by the wall where the waves splash up into the open boxes up hill the pipes are broken and water leaches into the same boxes, and sub panel out 150 feet on the dock. the lights where wired with no ground in the 50's going along the board walk with ridgid pipe that is now rusted at the joints. I've convinced him to replace every thing but the pump. Any input would be appreciated.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: gfci

Greg,

There is no neutral to his equipment. Two phase wires going to the circuit breaker and the ground terminated to the neutral on the circuit breaker.

You can't use the grounded (neutral) conductor for grounding on the load side of the service disconnect. This is a violation of 250.142(B). The equipment grounding conductor must be connected to the grounding bus, not the grounded conductor.
Don

 

[hurk27]

Re: gfci

I have to agree with Don as putting the ground wire on the neutral terminal on a two pole gfci breaker will defeit the gfci circuit as it will not trip on a ground fault to any metal that might be bonded by that ground wire!!

Now the type of hot tub you are discribing is a 3-wire 240v tub with just two hots and a ground (that must be terminated to the grounding bar in the panel not the neutral on the gfci)

You can do one of two things eather use a breaker that don't have the neutral connection or use one that does but don't connect anything to it just connect the pig-tail to the neutral buss and it will preform fine as long as this tub is a true 3-wire.

There are some manufactures that do require a seperate neutral and ground and in this case there will be a neutral connecting to this neutral terminal on the gfci but the ground wire still goes to the grounding bar in the panel along with the pigtail from the breaker

 

[greg volz]

Re: gfci

This jacuzzi dealer was dropped from the client list. I did a three way conference call with two techs with the manufacturer and did all the possibilities and the conclusion still the same as the code requirement.This dealer makes 125.00 an hour for his technical services , turning his customers into boiled lobster. thanks for the input, it helps when you get reassureance.

 

[harley]

Re: gfci

Can you please identify manuf. or dealer so I
can investigate. This MUST be 4 wire

 

[hurk27]

Re: gfci

Harley
There are tubs that do use only 220v 3-wire hookup and don't use a neutral at all matter of fact most of the ones I have seen lately are of this type, and could be from cutting cost in manufacturing as less components are needed. but a 4-wire tub does need the neutral because of components needing 120v.

In this case this is a 3-wire tub and there is no neutral they do make a breaker without the neutral terminal on it but the one that he had does have a neutral terminal so with this type of tub the neutral terminal will not have a wire terminating to it and is left blank. what he was told by the service tech was that he had to connect the grounding wire (EGC) to this neutral terminal on the breaker and not to the ground/neutral bar in the main breaker panel.

What this causes is that in the event of a hot to ground leakage at the tub the GFCI will treat it like normal current and not trip and this is a dangerous and deadly shock hazard that should not have been ever told to someone to do!!! as this EGC should always terminate on the proper grounding buss and never to a GFCI neutral terminal. Because someone could of been killed and this should also be a good lesson that this kind of equipment is not for the unqualified to be hooking up as you could kill someone and it could be someone you love very much. so if you don't understand what your working on leave it alone.
leave it for the professional.

And I don't say this because I need the work. I say this because there are many DYS, and even some pro's that can get in over their heads really quick! when it comes to electricity around water people can be killed if the installers don't know what there doing. And I don't even want to go into liability issue.
This is why we have the NEC and forums like this to help us all so that maybe we might be able to prevent another unnecessary loss of life.
Wayne

[ April 30, 2003, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]

 

[harley]

Re: gfci

I understand the 3 wire or 4 wire load. Users must
not connect bonding (3 wire) to Neutral terminal
of breaker.
The Big D only has a 60 amp (no load neutral) breaker and the Hammer, Ge, Little S all have
load neutral terminal. Please correct me if wrong.
Must be careful not to use 30ma equipment protector breakers.