Gfcis not tripping

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AKwiring

Member
I replaced 4 kitchen counter receptacles with gfci receptacles and none of them trip when I use my tester. I tried a new gfci, still not tripping. I replaced the bathroom gfci and it also is not tripping when I test it. I am getting 120 volts in all locations and only have a black, white, and bare in each box. I also tried a gfci breaker and that also wouldn't trip.
I used 2 types of gfci testers and they don't trip it although the test buttons do work on the devices. So I thought I would try to leak hot to ground to see if it would trip. I put a wire in the hot slot on the receptacle and the other end on the grounded water pipe at the sink. It still did not trip. Should that make it trip?
Any ideas? I want to make sure the homeowners are safe and also an insurance inspector will be checking them soon.
I've never run into this problem before and am not sure what is going on.
Thanks for your help!
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Is it possible that there is a bare conductor that isn't grounded. A circuit tester won't trip the GFCI if there is no ground.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
Dennis Alwon said:
Is it possible that there is a bare conductor that isn't grounded. A circuit tester won't trip the GFCI if there is no ground.

Either that, or the ground wire is not continuous back to the panel.
 

AKwiring

Member
I hooked the hot and neutral to the LINE side as I only had line wires coming in.

You are right there is no bare ground. So the tester won't work?

What about when I put the hot to the grounded sink and it still didn't trip? ( I was reading 85 volts when I measured voltage between hot and metal sink)
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
Your first post has a bare ground.

Now you're saying there isn't.

If there is no ground, that's why the plug-in tester won't test.... it needs the ground to create a path to ground to bypass the sensors in the GFI. If the test button on the GFI causes it to trip, that's all you can do.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
AKwiring said:
I hooked the hot and neutral to the LINE side as I only had line wires coming in.

You are right there is no bare ground. So the tester won't work?

What about when I put the hot to the grounded sink and it still didn't trip? ( I was reading 85 volts when I measured voltage between hot and metal sink)

The button on the GFCI is the only sure way to test the GFCI. If that trips the GFCI then it's good.

If you put the hot to the sink I am surprised that it didn.t trip the breaker. It appears there isn't any connection between the plumbing and the service.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
Dennis Alwon said:
The button on the GFCI is the only sure way to test the GFCI. If that trips the GFCI then it's good.

If you put the hot to the sink I am surprised that it didn.t trip the breaker. It appears there isn't any connection between the plumbing and the service.


Gotta love PVC pipe and Pex! :)
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
The newer GFI receptacle will not work at all when wired backwords, they will not set. Are you using the older style? they will set and trip, but remain hot even when tripped if they are wired backwords (load and line swapped).
 

AKwiring

Member
You are right, the bare ground in the device box does not run all the way back to the panel. The GFCIs are new and are wired correctly. I was wondering why they were not tripping. I will check to see if the plumbing is grounded to the electrical system.

Thanks for your help guys!
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
AKwiring said:
You are right, the bare ground in the device box does not run all the way back to the panel.
One more thing: without that EGC being bonded at the panel, it should also not be connected to any receptacle, neither the GFCI itself, nor either upstream or downstream. Don't even tie them together where you have more than one in a box.
 

TOOL_5150

Senior Member
Location
bay area, ca
AKwiring said:
So I thought I would try to leak hot to ground to see if it would trip. I put a wire in the hot slot on the receptacle and the other end on the grounded water pipe at the sink. It still did not trip. Should that make it trip?

I am amased that no one has made any comments about that statement. :-?

~Matt
 

ElectricianJeff

Senior Member
LarryFine said:
One more thing: without that EGC being bonded at the panel, it should also not be connected to any receptacle, neither the GFCI itself, nor either upstream or downstream. Don't even tie them together where you have more than one in a box.

Larry,

Can you provide a code section on this? I have mistakenlly done this in the past and am wondering what type of hazard this practice creates.

Thanks
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Also be careful if you are using one of the GFI testers that have the dials and send different loads to the outlet. They tell you right on them that there is a chance of shock if you are using it on an ungrounded system.
 

gar

Senior Member
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Occupation
EE
080624-1715 EST

AK:

The amount of training you have had in electrical circuit theory will determine your general ability to analyze problems like this.

This discussion points out the need to have a basic understanding how components work, electrical circuit theory, and the code and why certain requirements are in the code.

The code and certain specifications are not my speciality. So the following may need to be backed up by your study of the pertinent original source information.

I believe the specification for a GFCI is --- if a steady-state unbalanced current thru the GFCI is greater than 5 MA for 7.5 seconds the GFCI is to trip. It is also true that for short time periods this current can be much higher without tripping the GFCI. For exaample 100 MA at 0.1 second. However, an actual unit may be more sensitive. These points are on the UL test limit curve.

See my post #32 at
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=99714&highlight=national+semiconductor+gfci
and page 4 of
http://cache.national.com/ds/LM/LM1851.pdf
for a trip time curve.

Fundamentally the GFCI device measures the difference current between the hot and neutral pair of wires running thru the GFCI device. It does not measure ground current, and therefore it fundamentally does not require the EGC (equipment ground conductor). Really it is not a ground fault detector but a detector of any difference in current between the hot and neutral conductors. Generally this unbalance is likely to result from a shunt resistance from the hot line to earth or some other grounded conductor, but unbalance could come from some other source than a short to ground.

120 V applied across a 24,000 ohm resistor will produce 5 MA. My normal hand to hand resistance is about 500,000 ohms. Under these normally dry conditions I will not trip one of these devices, but I will get a substantial shock. 500,000 ohms would only produce a load current of 0.2 MA with 120 V applied. However, note in a sine wave AC signal the peak voltage of an RMS 120 V signal is 120*1.414 = 170 V. Thus, the peak current would be 0.2*1.414 = 0.28 MA. But the time constant of the GFCI is long and therefore it probably does not sense the peak.

I have not tried to analyze the National circuit to see if it takes the current peaks as a measure, but most likely it is effectively an averaging device of the difference current.

If you have EGC conductors at these outlets that are really not EGC conductors because they do not terminate at the main panel ground bus, then there might not be any current flow from a hot wire to the socket ground pin.

If there are no conductive paths from your sink to the main panel grounding bus, except the water, then assume that the water in the PVC pipe does conduct to the bus, then we are concerned with the water resistance thru the pipe. I just measured the resistivity of my city water which is fairly hard at about 2000 ohm-centimeters. If the inside cross section of the pipe is 1 sq-centimeter, then for each centimeter of length I add 2000 ohms. 20 ft of pipe is 2.54*12*20 = 610 CM and thus the resistance is about 1.22 megohms. This won't trip the GFCI.

To test the GFCI you could get a 22,000 ohm 1 W resistor and connect this between the ground bus at the main breaker box and the hot output terminal of the GFCI. Using a 5% tolerance resistor you should be below 24,000 ohms and thus trip the GFCI. Using an 18,000 resistor should certainly trip the device.

I hope this gives you some idea on how to analyze your circuit. Note: soft water would have an even higher resistivity. Some bottled spring water was 2900 ohm-cm, and a different brand of bottled water was 2000 ohm-cm. A small amount of lemon juice added brought the 2000 down to 1700. Distilled water should approach infinity.

.
 
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