GFCI's

[mycocomo10]

Does the NEC or MFG. requirements say anything about an appliance with a compressor being plugged into a ground fault receptacle or circuit?

I inspected a home and checked the GFCI's to verify their proper working order and the lady said I did not reset the circuit. I absolutely know I did. I have been at this for over 20 years as well as an electrician for over 30 years. I said to her that the freezer should not be plugged into a gfci. Am I right or wrong in this instance?

 

[jeff43222]

Re: GFCI's

There is an exception to the GFCI requirements in 210.8 that says that residential receptacles powering appliances in areas that would otherwise require GFCI protection can be non-GFCI if the appliances are the kind that tend to stay plugged in and are not moved around too easily (e.g., a refrigerator, laundry machines). The 2005 NEC tightened up the exception, though. Any 120V 15A or 20A receptacle within 6 feet of a sink must now have GFCI protection, even if it's for a large appliance.

It's still good practice to keep refrigerators and freezers off GFCIs, though, so as to avoid food spoiling due to nuisance trips. I suspect that's what happened with this lady's freezer.

[ July 19, 2005, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]

 

[iwire]

Re: GFCI's

Originally posted by jeff43222:
There is an exception to the GFCI requirements in 210.8 that says that residential receptacles powering appliances in areas that would otherwise require GFCI protection can be non-GFCI if the appliances are the kind that tend to stay plugged in and are not moved around too easily (e.g., a refrigerator, laundry machines).

Those exceptions are only valid in garages and basements.

 

[jeff43222]

Re: GFCI's

Originally posted by iwire:

Originally posted by jeff43222:
There is an exception to the GFCI requirements in 210.8 that says that residential receptacles powering appliances in areas that would otherwise require GFCI protection can be non-GFCI if the appliances are the kind that tend to stay plugged in and are not moved around too easily (e.g., a refrigerator, laundry machines).

Those exceptions are only valid in garages and basements.

 

[physis]

Re: GFCI's

I've changed my mind on this a little over the last year or two. I used to think that GFI's and motors just don't get along and a GFI would trip when there wasn't actually any current leaking. A result of inductive phase shifts or something. But I think I've decided that there actually tripping inresponce to a current leak.

Why loads like refridgerators seem to like to do this current leaking thing I really don't understand. But not all of them do. My point is, the refriderator probably is "leaking".

 

[iwire]

Re: GFCI's

Originally posted by jeff43222:
Maybe in a residential boathouse, though.

No doubt one will be there

I just wanted to be clear on the exceptions before someone goes off half cocked.

I think it is also worth pointing out that all 15 and 20 amp 120 volt receptacles in commercial kitchens must be GFCI protected and there are no exceptions.

Cord and plug connected freezers, refrigerators, they all must be GFCI protected in a commercial kitchen.

 

[Jhr]

Re: GFCI's

What would you say was the reasoning by the code panel to not put the exception for refrigerators and freezers plugged into single receptacles in a commercial setting, seen that with a residential fridge or freezer if a gfci trips you might lose a gallon of milk, frozen dinners, or a couple of steaks, in a commercial setting if a gfci receptacle trips this could mean the lose of hundreds of dollars in supplies and business the difference is way out there.

 

[iwire]

Re: GFCI's

Originally posted by Jhr:
What would you say was the reasoning by the code panel to not put the exception for refrigerators and freezers plugged into single receptacles in a commercial setting,

Electrocutions from refrigerators in commercial kitchens.

 

[roger]

Re: GFCI's

There are also ways to use alarms to monitor these circuits which could call a manager or assistant manager(s) if the power were lost on a commercial refrigerator.

Roger

[ July 19, 2005, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[mc5w]

Re: GFCI's

Most older refrigerators have too much insultation capacitance to be compatible with GFCI. Some of the leakage is in the cheap insulation in the compressor and some of it is in door jamb heaters as they age. This is not a hazard as long as the refrigerator is grounded.

Actaully, if you are really worried about electrocution hazards from commercial refrigerators you need either a second equipment ground OR continuous monitoring of the continuity of the equipment ground. Continuous nomitoring of the equipment ground is one of the safety measures that is used in mines where you have lots of water and 1,100 volt 3,300 volt extension cords.

What I do not like about this indiscriminant expansion of GFCI requirements is that a GFCI says that it is acceptable to use the human body as a backup equipment ground. Also, a lot of equipment is NOT compatible such as that at 55 MPH you cannot keep salt water out of the wiring for the engine block heaters on trucks unless the trucck is driven strictly in Florida or Central America.

 

[iwire]

Re: GFCI's

Originally posted by mc5w:
Most older refrigerators have too much insultation capacitance to be compatible with GFCI. Some of the leakage is in the cheap insulation in the compressor and some of it is in door jamb heaters as they age.

Buy a new refrigerator already.

Originally posted by mc5w:
This is not a hazard as long as the refrigerator is grounded.

I agree with that, unfortunately the grounding connections have been breaking, that is why people have died from touching a refrigerator.

Originally posted by mc5w:
Actaully, if you are really worried about electrocution hazards from commercial refrigerators you need either a second equipment ground OR continuous monitoring of the continuity of the equipment ground. Continuous nomitoring of the equipment ground is one of the safety measures that is used in mines where you have lots of water and 1,100 volt 3,300 volt extension cords..

You bring this up all the time, if you feel that strongly about it put in a proposal.

IMO it ain't gonna happen.

1)GFCIs are cheap and readily accessible.

2)Monitoring systems are only as good as the people watching them. As long as the plug is working they can ignore the alarm. Remember the smoke that you said where chirping for 9 months?

In the mines that use 1,100 volt 3,300 volt extension cords it's a safe bet that there are full time electricians and safety officers watching over the condition of the cords and the monitoring equipment

Originally posted by mc5w:
Also, a lot of equipment is NOT compatible such as that at 55 MPH you cannot keep salt water out of the wiring for the engine block heaters on trucks unless the trucck is driven strictly in Florida or Central America.

Then it's time for the manufactures to spend a little more money to make their equipment compatible.

 

[pierre]

Re: GFCI's

Mycocomo

I give you a lot of credit for not being embarassed to ask this question - even with all of the experience you have in the field. It should be a lesson to all that not knowing all the answers is not such a bad thing, not trying to find the answers is the bad thing.


I wired a commercial kitchen 3 1/2 years ago with GFCI devices. They have not had one device go bad or lost any food spoilage yet.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: GFCI's

As long as people never go on vacation, then a freezer will not trip a GFI. The second the tires hit the asphalt bound for vacation, freezers (especially ones containing meat from hunting trips) get jealous and rebel.

I know of two instances.

Since noone is ever on vacation in a commercial setting, the GFI will not trip because the freezer will not have enough time to get lonely.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[physis]

Re: GFCI's

That's too funny.