GFI on gunite spa blower

[manic67]

I have been installing pool/spa equipment for years. The blowers on the spas have a Hartford loop at the spa and a backflow prevention valve at the blower and they are mounted a few feet above the water level. Since they are technically not pumps, but blowers is gfic protection needed? I would consider it intrinsically safe, since it can not have any water contact, but it has now come under scrutiny.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I believe the entire spa would need gfci protection

680.44 Protection. Except as otherwise provided in this
section, the outlet(s) that supplies a self-contained spa or hot
tub, a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly, or a fieldassembled
spa or hot tub shall be protected by a ground-fault
circuit interrupter.
(A) Listed Units. If so marked, a listed, labeled, and identified
self-contained unit or a listed, labeled, and identified packaged
equipment assembly that includes integral ground-fault circuitinterrupter
protection for all electrical parts within the unit or
assembly (pumps, air blowers, heaters, lights, controls, sanitizer
generators, wiring, and so forth) shall be permitted without
additional GFCI protection.
(B) Other Units. A field-assembled spa or hot tub rated 3
phase or rated over 250 volts or with a heater load of more
than 50 amperes shall not require the supply to be protected by
a ground-fault circuit interrupter.

 

[JFletcher]

Welcome to the forum. I'm not going to quote you code, just what we install: all spa components, whether indoor or outdoor, manufactured/listed units or otherwise, all get GFCI protection, on everything.

When in doubt, exceed code.

Note that 680.44(B) as cited above never comes into play in residential construction; none are 3ph, over 250V, or have heaters >50A.

 

[manic67]

680.44A does not apply. And no, not all items have to be gfic. Pool light transformers do not(contact limit), gas heaters do not, heat pumps do not, and the control panel does not(Hayward Omni-logic, aqua plus, 16-v). Pumps over 20 amps don't, however I do make them GFI. The problem is that the code doesn't specifically say much about these peripherals.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

680.44A does not apply. And no, not all items have to be gfic. Pool light transformers do not(contact limit), gas heaters do not, heat pumps do not, and the control panel does not(Hayward Omni-logic, aqua plus, 16-v). Pumps over 20 amps don't, however I do make them GFI. The problem is that the code doesn't specifically say much about these peripherals.

This is a spa not a pool so 680.44 (B) applies

 

[Mystic Pools]

Here's where the terminology comes into play.

Spa? Hot tub?

This is a permanent structure.

Portable spas, fiberglass, require complete GFCI protection from the power source. All the components (spa pack) under the spa, including the blower, are GFCI protected.

All our pools(gunite) and separate spas(gunite) whether as a combo with the pool (sharing equipment) or separate, have ALL the components protected.

Although there is a Hartford loop, if the jet pump outlets/returns becomes restricted some how, the water CAN back up through the Hartford loop and make contact with the blower. I have seen this.

I see it as a CYA even though the lights for instance at a certain volt rating do not require it as per code. But why take a chance? I'd rather sleep at night.

 

[manic67]

I appreciate the input. I guess the big problem is that Hayward doesn't provide enough breaker spaces in their aqua plus and 16v panels. There is no room for a full size gfi, so I will have to add an outlet off the light xfmr circuit and tie it into that. Also the code is not explicit in addressing this issue one way or the other, and when an inspector insists on it, neither person has a leg to stand on. I was hoping that I was missing something in 680 that someone else may have picked up.

 

[GoldDigger]

I appreciate the input. I guess the big problem is that Hayward doesn't provide enough breaker spaces in their aqua plus and 16v panels. Tis no room for a full size gfi, so I will have to add an outlet off the light xfmr circuit and tie it into that. Also the code is not explicit in addressing this issue one way or the other, and when an inspector insists on it, neither person has a leg to stand on. I was hoping that I was missing something in 680 that someone else may have picked up.

Just FYI, if you do not want to have an additional receptacle (outlet), you can get a blank-face GFCI that protects feed through but does not provide a local receptacle. Avoids TR and in-use cover issues.

 

[brantmacga]

I see it as a CYA even though the lights for instance at a certain volt rating do not require it as per code. But why take a chance? I'd rather sleep at night.

GFCI will not read a ground fault through a LV transformer, so there's never a reason to use one.


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[brantmacga]

Air blowers do not require GFCI.... spa packs require GFCI for the pump motors.

I'm assuming on this gunite spa, you have a pump and air blower over at the pool equipment pad?


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[manic67]

Brantmacga,
Exactly!
Now how do I get an inspector to see the light?

 

[brantmacga]

Brantmacga,
Exactly!
Now how do I get an inspector to see the light?

Ask them to cite the code requiring it ..... usually works.


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[kwired]

This is a spa not a pool so 680.44 (B) applies

When an accessory item is remote from the spa NEC isn't all that clear on if it is still a part of the SPA.

 

[manic67]

Good news. I got in contact with the manufacturer and he says GFCI is not needed. Just waiting on a letter from him now to show the inspector.:thumbsup:

 

[FionaZuppa]

GFCI will not read a ground fault through a LV transformer, so there's never a reason to use one.


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why's that? if an egc carries through then a gfi will still function, no?

 

[GoldDigger]

why's that? if an egc carries through then a gfi will still function, no?

Current from a fault on the SDS secondary will try to return to it's source, namely the secondary winding. It will not cause any imbalance in the current on the primary side, whether the fault current happens to travel over the primary EGC along the way.

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