GFI panel brkr tripping

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jjhoward

jjhoward

Senior Member
Location
Northern NJ
Occupation
Owner TJ Electric
I think I know the answer to this:
I have a customer with a tripping GFI panel brkr for no apparent reason.
The circuit feeds 2 recept in a bedroom, lights & exhaust fan in 2 baths, range hood fan and a small light fixture over the kitchen sink.
(This is NJ, so no AFC for the bedrooms is legal)

Assuming that there is a neutral to gnd short in this circuit, would a circuit tracer help me find this one?

Thank you.
 
I could install GFIs at the 2 recept in the bedrooms..if I wanted to.
The lights & fans in 2 baths is another story along with the exhaust hood over the range and the light in the kitchen. :roll:

I am assuming that there is a gnd/neutral problem here. I swapped the GFI panel breaker and it ain't the breaker.

If I install a standard 15 amp breaker all is well.

What I haven't done:
Measured resistance between the grnd and neutral at the panel.
 
Could it even be accumulation of grease in the motor for the range hood?
Enough of junk to provide a high resistance path from either hot or neutral to grnd?
 
No, you are not brain dead.
This house has this thing in there when the customer called me.
Easy solution is to drop in a standard 15 amp breaker...OK but...
that damn GFI DID work but now something is making it trip.
 
I swapped it out the GFI breaker with a regular one. But I did drop a ragged fluroscent fixture in the kitchen...it just looked bad. Inside there was a splice that was exposed (the wire nut had fallen off) but other than an ugly install, this fixture was not the GFI problem.

Checked one dimmer....no problem there...So the regular breaker is in and the leakage current remains....

Couldn't I use a circuit tracer to find a grnd/neutral short??
 
Yea let it go...
BTW, that pooch is my crazy golden retriever mom.
She is one crazy b_ _ _ h! :lol:
Just sold the last pups of the last litter. Will probably be fixing dad and spaying mom.
 
just thinking,,
are there any outside receptaclec on this circiut?or is there a post lite on this circiut?,if the uf cable is only 12" deep ,it would be on a gfi,,,some one went through the expense of putting this on a gfi for a reason,,,
i wonder why,," :?: "
 
77401 said:
AND??? it doesn't belong there? Right? Required? NOT!
Get rid of the GFCI breaker, & move on. Too many reasons why its tripping.
I hope your not charging the customer to satisfy your curiosity
Click to expand...

And I hope you do not regularly remove customers devices without their input.

It is not up to an EC to simply get rid of a GFCI because troubleshooting can be time consuming.

Isn't that why they call us...to fix the problem.

If it was me I would give the customer the options and let them decide.

If it worked before something must have changed and IMO it would be a good idea to find the problem not ignore it.

Bob
 
First thing -- verify that it is in fact a bootleg causing the trip.

Turn off the breaker, disconnect G/N at panel and check for continuity, there should be none on a normal circuit. If there is continuity, then there's a bootleg somewhere. Measuring the resistance and factoring for wire size might give some rough clues as to how far from the panel it is in feet.

Now armed with a rough foot distance, a tracer might allow you to follow the wire around until you get in the range of "X" feet from the panel.
 
iwire said:
And I hope you do not regularly remove customers devices without their input.

Isn't that why they call us...to fix the problem.

If it worked before something must have changed and IMO it would be a good idea to find the problem not ignore it.

Bob
Click to expand...

As you should know by now I always give my input. 8)
The problem "is" the GFCI breaker that is on this circuit, is not required by code.
Now, Bob, explain to this customer why, they should pay you to trouble shoot any further? Will NOT finding, and repairing the problem cause the customer any safety or fire hazard? :wink:
 
77401 said:
As you should know by now I always give my input. 8)
Click to expand...

:lol:

True enough.

77401 said:
The problem "is" the GFCI breaker that is on this circuit, is not required by code.
Click to expand...

1)You do not know that, you are assuming that, there may be an outdoor receptacle on that circuit.

2)It is the customers property if they want a GFCI on every circuit that is up to them.

3)Having a GFCI on a circuit that it is not NEC required is not 'a problem'.

77401 said:
Now, Bob, explain to this customer why, they should pay you to trouble shoot any further?
Click to expand...

As I said I would not assume what the customer wants me to do, I would give them the options.

I would push for finding the reason it suddenly started tripping when it had been working previously.

77401 said:
Will NOT finding, and repairing the problem cause the customer any safety or fire hazard? :wink:
Click to expand...

Yes, of course it could be a sign of something dangerous happening to the wiring in the house.

We will not know if it is dangerous or not until the problem is found.

IMO simply replacing a GFCI breaker with a normal breaker on a circuit that had been operating fine previously is terribly unprofessional. The HO could do that with a trip to HD, if they called an electrician in it suggests to me they want it 'fixed' not 'buried'.

JMO, Bob
 
77401 said:
Will NOT finding, and repairing the problem cause the customer any safety or fire hazard? :wink:
Click to expand...

Depends on the cause I would imagine. If its in a box where a gnd just snaked around to touch a neutral screw because of a lousy stuffing job, maybe not. If some gorilla was hanging pictures with 20 penny nails and skewered the cable somewhere, that would not be a good thing.
 
iwire said:
Yes, of course it could be a sign of something dangerous happening to the wiring in the house.
Click to expand...
But did you explain how this "could" be a problem?
One that a regular breaker would not protect?

I'm not assuming anything, if there is a outdoor receptacle or hidden receptacle in the bath or countertop I'd install an individual GFCI at that required location.

Bob, I do respect your opinion & as much as it may appear that I'm being a horse's butt, I'm just trying to make us all think & look at this from every angle. :)
 
77401 said:
One that a regular breaker would not protect?
Click to expand...

Good question.

How about this one.

What has happened that is not an NEC violation and that is causing the GFCI to trip?

A likely cause of the GFCI trip is grounded to grounding conductor contact.

It could be water intrusion into the wiring system.

Or it could simply be a cheap appliance that needs to find the landfill. :p

It is just not my style to ignore a problem by finding a 'work around'.

77401 said:
as much as it may appear that I'm being a horse's rear, I'm just trying to make us all think & look at this from every angle. :)
Click to expand...

I did not think that at all, your opinion regardless of me agreeing with it or not is as welcome here as mine. 8)
 
Here's an online wire size/resistance chart that might be useful

[edit]
Bob raises a good point - if you see continuity but relatively high resistance between N/G at the panel, then the seeker/resistance/distance ploy is worthless and you'll have to look for water/vermin/debris intrusion that would cause a relatively high resistance
 
Why not disconnect/break the circuit some where in the middle and utilize the correctly functioning GFI brkr as a diagnostic tool.

If the GFI does NOT trip, the problem is down stream of that point (the break).

If the GFI still trips, problem is somewhere between the break and source.
Simply estimate the middle of the ckt between the initial break and the source and repeat the procedure.

This procedure would at least isolate the problem to a component or section of wire/cable.

Maybe a crude method, but certainly effective.
Keep it simple!

Bob
 
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