Goes against common sense, at least, but...

Status
Not open for further replies.
G

gcsdls

Member
Location
Russellville, AR
I don't know if the NEC or NFPA 79 actually tell how a disconnect enclosure is supposed to be mounted, or if they assume common sense, or point to another directive. I can't find much, other than "completely and properly installed...". What I'm wondering is exactly which NEC or NFPA 79 rules this is breaking? This is a NEMA 4X enclosure with a fused disconnect inside it...and rather than using the four mounting holes provided, they're welding some sanitary piping on the bottom to both mount the box AND run the outgoing power cable through, with a cord grip on the inside of the sanitary pipe. In order to service the cord or cord grip, the mount of the box itself (sanitary pipe???) has to be removed...presumably leaving someone holding it in their hands while trying to work on the cord. In order to stop this from happening, can someone please direct me to the NEC or NFPA 79 directives that this is breaking?

IMG_0409.jpg

Thanks....

gcsdls
 
Looks to my like if you took the locknut off of the cord connector you could slide both the cord connector and the cord out of the pipe without having to disassemble anything.


JAP>
 
jap said:
Looks to my like if you took the locknut off of the cord connector you could slide both the cord connector and the cord out of the pipe without having to disassemble anything.


JAP>
Click to expand...

Yes...I could see that. But we still have the two removable sanitary clamps and gaskets serving as the enclosure mounting...?
 
There's not enough of the picture to comment too much about what may or may not be taking place.

JAP>
 
If it's factory mounted on a piece of listed equipment the NEC is silent. If it has a NRTL sticker on it then it's a non-issue.
 
infinity said:
If it's factory mounted on a piece of listed equipment the NEC is silent. If it has a NRTL sticker on it then it's a non-issue.
Click to expand...

Well, it's not "factory mounted", except by our factory. We're an OEM. And the machine itself is not "listed", although the disconnect enclosure is a listed AB enclosure. And there is no NRTL sticker.

What I'm trying to get to is a piece of equipment that is compliant with the standards...and I was there, until this was forced on me by non-electrical people in authority. They had seen a HMI mounted in an enclosure on a pendant, which, although it looks like sanitary piping, is UL listed and, once assembled, becomes an integral part of the enclosure, maintaining the NEMA 4X rating and allowing all service functions without removal...none of which this does.

It obviously does not pass the 110.3b rule...but they seem to need a whole list of reasons, rather than just one rule violation.

Thanks for all your help.
 
I personally do not think it is a major issue.

The machine is probably not NRTL listed, as virtually none are, so that is not a problem.

I don't think the NEC applies to parts of a piece of utilization equipment.

NFPA79 does not appear to directly prohibit mounting boxes in this way, nor does it appear to have a requirement that listed parts be used IAW their listing instructions. Having said that, I am not sure there is any specific mounting requirement in the listing instructions for this box. There might be.

You might get some kick back from the AHJ who might decide not to "approve" such a mounting scheme.

The pipe used is not a listed raceway and raceways are required by NFPA79 to be listed.

My guess is there are worse things on this machine to worry about.
 
infinity said:
Would a listed cord need to be in a listed raceway?
Click to expand...
In fact, if that is listed as PORTABLE cord, can it be used as permanent wiring at all? Having it in a raceway like that means it is permanent.

Aside from that though, look at 300.11 (B), then see if it meets the requirements of 314.23. I doubt that it does.
 
Not sure if it applies to a welded arrangement, but isn't there a rule in the NEC about not supporting a j-box from a single conduit? I think it normally applies to conduit emerging from the ground and ending in a j-box usually for a receptacle. Not sure where that rule is.
 
Jraef said:
In fact, if that is listed as PORTABLE cord, can it be used as permanent wiring at all? Having it in a raceway like that means it is permanent.

Aside from that though, look at 300.11 (B), then see if it meets the requirements of 314.23. I doubt that it does.
Click to expand...

why would it need to meet NEC requirements?
 
Not that it's any of my business, but, I find it hard to believe that a company that can spend that type of money on stainless enclosure and manufacturing their own equipment can't find a couple of pieces of stainless angle or flatiron laying around to weld on as uprights to line up with the mounting holes.

Did you not send the non-electrical guys a Christmas card last year ? :D

JAP>
 
jap said:
Not that it's any of my business, but, I find it hard to believe that a company that can spend that type of money on stainless enclosure and manufacturing their own equipment can't find a couple of pieces of stainless angle or flatiron laying around to weld on as uprights to line up with the mounting holes.

Did you not send the non-electrical guys a Christmas card last year ? :D

JAP>
Click to expand...

that is why I suggested in an earlier post that there are probably far worse things on this piece of machinery.
 
petersonra said:
why would it need to meet NEC requirements?
Click to expand...
Well, that was the OPs question. I get your point though.The NEC is about what is done in the field. If the machine didn't come with that attached, you would not be allowed to attach it that way. But if it DID come with it attached that way, it's not an NEC issue and NFPA 79 does not have the same requirements.

gcsdls
If it's being inspected, I would make it abundantly clear to the AHJ that you did not mount that disconnect box that way, it came from the factory like that.
 
This is probably the first time I have said it, and it may be the last... That welding is so well done, and somebody went to extreme expense to put what looks like a dairy or brewery use stainless chase around, what is it, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit, that even if it is a technical violation of some code, I would be inclined to let that pass... I do not see a safety issue here, quite the opposite... Someone went to Extreme Measures to protect the wiring and make sure it was watertight and not subject to damage. Probably should have run thwn - 2 or UF instead of what looks like soow cord... if it is some sort of extension cord, 400.8 is the violation.

Eta... as long as I disconnect is secure by the clamps and the sanitary piping, I don't see a problem with it being mounted that way. It probably isn't listed to be welded, but in this case, if it's rigidly mounted and secure, I don't see a problem with it... 99.8% of in the field fixes like this are wrong, this one might have actually beat the system even if it's a technical violation.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the discussion, y'all.

In NFPA 79, Chapter 1.5, it says, "On any point for which specific provisions are not made in this standard, the provisions of NFPA 70, National Electric Code, shall be observed."

That's why I believe the NEC may indeed have something to say about this. I'm trying to get some ammo to be able to have this box mounted in a better way.

In regards to the common sense of the way this is mounted, I have the following observations:

1) The piping is mounted by removable clamps and pipes. Basically, there's one bolt holding this box up. Should it come loose, it does not even have to come loose all the way before the box is then not properly supported, and putting stress on the cable and cord connector, possibly hazardously.

2) To reach the cord connector on the inside of the pipe, not only do the clamps need to be loosened, but then the person needing to access the cord connector (for whatever reason) would be holding a hot box in his hands, and putting stress on the unknown quantity of the incoming feed connection, unless he first went all the way back to the MCC room to disconnect the electrical feed coming to the machine.

3) When dealing with electrical connections, the last thing you should have to worry about is holding the box up while trying to deal with the cables.

I really appreciate the discussion and help, guys. :)


As to the Christmas card question...LOL, yes, I did send them Christmas cards. And we've had a good relationship in the past. That's why this whole thing has blind-sided me.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top