golf cart charging - GFCI required?

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malachi constant

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2011 NEC 210.8(8) requires GFCI protection for garages, service bays, and similar areas where electrical diagnostic equipment, electrical hand tools, or portable lighting equipment are to be used. I'm designing a new facility where battery-charging stations will be provided for golf carts. This is an indoor location. I was thinking of it as a parking garage with charging equipment, but this causes me to pause.

So...am I safe installing my 60+ 15A/1P ceiling-mounted dedicated receptacles without GFCI? I don't think the equipment getting plugged in would constitute "electrical diagnostic equipment, hand tools, etc".
 
I don't think the list mentioned in 210.8(b)(8) is a complete list. So, if it is a garage or a carport it requires GFCI.
 
edward said:
I don't think the list mentioned in 210.8(b)(8) is a complete list.
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I disagree. The list is what it is.
edward said:
So, if it is a garage or a carport it requires GFCI.
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I disagree with this statement as well. In this section, the words, "or similar areas" are followed by another list, this one describing the types of loads intended to be protected by GFCI. The loads in the new facility are not on that list. So I conclude that GFCI is not "required." The question of whether GFCI would be a good idea is a separate matter, as is the question of whether the owner would be willing to pay the additional costs.
 
charlie b said:
The question of whether GFCI would be a good idea is a separate matter, as is the question of whether the owner would be willing to pay the additional costs.
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Thanks Charlie. I agree with you. As far as whether the Owner is willing to pay for GFCI...
* The manufacturer recommends lightning protection of the structure, and has fairly stringent grounding recommendations as well (including a ground ring).
* The Owner has directed us to not include lightning protection or additional grounding unless it is basically no cost. We're going to drive a couple extra ground rods and call it a day.
* The manufacturer makes no mention in their 26-page installation instructions about a GFCI device. They specifically call out the NEMA receptacle type, and have a number of diagrams showing the receptacles, but none of them include GFCI.

It might be a good idea, but if the code doesn't require it, and the manufacturer doesn't come right out and recommend it, then there is no way the Owner will pay extra for it.

These things are all on the ceiling, and there is a nice finished space above that won't be leaking anything through. There is a cart washing area by the door. I'll pay attention to distances and slopes and be conservative with GFCIs in that area, but I don't think I can justify spreading it out to the whole garage.
 
How do you plug an electric car into an outlet in the ceiling? How high is that ceiling? Just curious; it won't change my views.
 
charlie b said:
I disagree. The list is what it is. I disagree with this statement as well. In this section, the words, "or similar areas" are followed by another list, this one describing the types of loads intended to be protected by GFCI. The loads in the new facility are not on that list. So I conclude that GFCI is not "required." The question of whether GFCI would be a good idea is a separate matter, as is the question of whether the owner would be willing to pay the additional costs.
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Well, I learned something today.

I am not arguing i am making a comment. The only issue i think the inspector may bring up is "how do you guarantee that these outlets will be used only for the chargers?" similar to the change that was done for receptacle garage receptacles now require to be all GFCI protected. in 2005 it was only accessible, but what may be accessible to you may not be accessible to me, hence the change for 2008.

You are installing it only for the chargers but what prevents someone for using the receptacles for anther purpose.
 
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Nothing prevents it, it is more of the intent of what the area is for. I think you're in a grey area. I'd say you meet the first half of the rule (a garage, service bay, or similar), but not the second. It is intended to charge cars, not service them. Part of reinforcing that answer is what does the rest of the building do? Is there a service area elsewhere, or carts with diagnostic equipment available, or trouble lights with male plugs? You could post a sign "car charging only, not a service bay". You could also install one multi-outlet branch circuit more accessible in the car area and GFCI it. Then label the pendants "car charging only".
 
Electrical Vehicle

Electrical Vehicle

edward said:
Well, I learned something today.

I am not arguing i am making a comment. The only issue i think the inspector may bring up is "how do you guarantee that these outlets will be used only for the chargers?" similar to the change that was done for receptacle garage receptacles now require to be all GFCI protected. in 2005 it was only accessible, but what may be accessible to you may not be accessible to me, hence the change for 2008.

You are installing it only for the chargers but what prevents someone for using the receptacles for anther purpose.
Click to expand...

The inspector might cite the installation to comply with [625.22] GFI integral with supply cable and type of cable per [625.17] for an EV charging system.
 
edward said:
Well, I learned something today.

I am not arguing i am making a comment. The only issue i think the inspector may bring up is "how do you guarantee that these outlets will be used only for the chargers?" similar to the change that was done for receptacle garage receptacles now require to be all GFCI protected. in 2005 it was only accessible, but what may be accessible to you may not be accessible to me, hence the change for 2008.

You are installing it only for the chargers but what prevents someone for using the receptacles for anther purpose.
Click to expand...

Are you thinking of 210.8(A)(2)?

That is for dwelling units, not commercial parking garages. I think 511.12 is what we have to work with.
 
gndrod said:
The inspector might cite the installation to comply with [625.22] GFI integral with supply cable and type of cable per [625.17] for an EV charging system.
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Wow, 625.22 about wins the award for being the most murky section in the book. They sure seem to mean GFCI, without saying it once.

However the article does not apply to golf carts. 625.2.
 
charlie b said:
How do you plug an electric car into an outlet in the ceiling? How high is that ceiling? Just curious; it won't change my views.
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The Owner provided the below photo from an installation they had recently seen. Remember, this is a golf cart, not a car - I don't know if you could do something similar for electric cars. For this, looks like they get their charging equipment and either hang it from a hook or set it on a shelf. That equipment remains plugged in 24-7. When the cart gets brought in they pull down the load-side cord and plug that into the cart. I have another photo, zoomed in, that shows these are NOT GFCI outlets.

FWIW the manufacturer tells me to figure a drained cart battery will pull about 12A for the first 10-12 hours, and that once it is charged it tapers off pretty quick. They said there is no issue leaving the carts plugged in for months.

cart storage.jpg
 
Hv&Lv said:
Inside or outside? How will this set with 210.8(B)(6)?
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You open up the overhead garage door to come in. You come in about five feet and they'll have a 16-year-old kid with a hose. Floor drain right there, that's the low point of the garage. Nothing fancy. But yeah, I'll have to mind what said kid might spray with that hose. This is a big garage - houses over 60 carts - not going to protect all of them, but maybe the ones within 25' of the door.
 
suemarkp said:
...what does the rest of the building do? Is there a service area elsewhere, or carts with diagnostic equipment available, or trouble lights with male plugs?
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This is one thing I am not sure of. The building is a golf clubhouse upstairs, cart storage downstairs. They have talked about an area to repair golf CLUBS, but not golf CARTS. There is a workbench down there, but I don't see these guys ever touching the electrical/electronic side of things - they'll call the EZ-GO rep. They don't have an air compressor for tires. I could see them mounting ads or fixing a steering wheel or something - purely nuts and bolts, nothing electrical, maybe spraying some WD-40.

OK, that sounds like "electrical hand tools" as described in 21.8(B)(8). I need to pin the Owner down on where they might do this. They do have a workbench in the vicinity of the "cart wash", my guess is I just GFCI everything in that area and will be compliant.

Thanks for the feedback everyone - getting my mad code skillz honed today. :)
 
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