ground receptacle

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dancer

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I have had several customers tell me they change an ungrounded receptacle to grounded receptacle by connecting a wire from the neutral terminal to the ground screw. It will then test as being a grounded receptacle. Can you give reasons why this is not a good idea? Also how does this effect a surge protector?
(work in electrical dept at Home Depot)
 
Re: ground receptacle

For one, it is a violation of the National Electrical Code. No grounded to grounding connection should be made on the load side of the service disconnect.

What is the hazard? Take for example a three wire appliance that is connected to a receptacle as you describe. The metal casing or frame of the appliance is bonded to the grounding pin on the cord. With the additional neutral to ground bond at the receptacle, the appliance frame can and will be used as a return to the source. Meaning, if someone were to touch the frame of the appliance and come in contact with another grounded object, they could become apart of the path of return path of current.

Keeping the neutral and grounding connection separate prevents this from taking place as normal operating current is isolated form metal parts.
 
Re: ground receptacle

What store # ?

Are you passing this information along to other customers?

Are you an electrician working in dept.27?

For your own knowledge, it is a code violation and a potentially dangerous situation. I'll leave it at that for now.
 
Re: ground receptacle

If you mean connecting the grounding terminal to the grounded conductor terminal on circuits with no EGC it is a violation of 250.142(B) for one. The grounded circuit conductor (neutral) cannot be used to ground non-current carrying metal parts on the load side of the service disconnect. I realize you cant tell the customers this, but they need to be told to leave electrical work to qualified professionals. :mad:
 
Re: ground receptacle

Originally posted by dancer:
Can you give reasons why this is not a good idea? Also how does this effect a surge protector?
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Violates NEC 250.24(5). It would force load cuurent to flow on the equipment frame and equipment ground conductor(EGC). This would develop a voltage potential for a person to come in contact with as Bryan already explained. By putting load current on the EGC you also run the risk of EMF exposure.

It wouldn't make any difference to a TVSS device, you just simply shorted out the neutral-to-ground MOV if one were included in the device.

I suspect people are doing this as a result of some TVSS devices that have a "idiot ground light" not lighting up. They fix the symptom by shorting N-G, rather than address the real proplem.
 
Re: ground receptacle

First, let me express my sincere thanks for taking the time to present this question to our forum. It tells me that you have a concern to get the answer right, and that you have a concern for the safety of your customers. Bravo (or Brava, as the case may require). :D :D

My short answer would be to tell a customer who suggests that action that it would give them a false reading that they have a proper ground.

Since you are an employee of a company that sells electrical equipment, there is a limit to what you can say to a customer. You don?t want to offend them, and you do want them to buy things at your store. So for your private ear, to use as you may best see fit, in addition to the other posts about code violations, I would like you to know that the wiring action you described can kill someone. Plain and simple, it can kill someone. Many people have done it, and few, if any, have actually been killed. But that does not make it safe. The wiring sets up an unsafe condition that could be a contributing cause to an electrocution.
 
Re: ground receptacle

Normally I would close a post of a DIY nature. However, I am going to leave this one open for the time being in an effort to drive the point of this safety issue.

I caution the membership not to give how-too instructions, but rather the safety aspects of this type of code violation.
 
Re: ground receptacle

Having worked at home depot before starting my apprenticeship 5 yrs ago, i can tell you all first hand that if homeowners can buy it they will try to install it themselves. Put this together with homedepots low pay, and we schedule hours based on what we make and you got one bad situation, that and the guy helping the customer may have less of a clue than the customer himself. when I had worked there I had seen people who wanted to do there own service changes, received a few calls after a customer felt it necessary to undo ALL the connections in a box just to change a switch, several wanted to wire there own pools, sub panels. I remember one Mexican gentleman that was looking for electrical tape to cover his splices, was surprised to see wire nuts when i showed him... i can go on and on
 
Re: ground receptacle

Ken, what store # ?

I wouldn't say that it is always low pay. I know associates that are paid between 20 and 30 dollars an hour.

What did you tell the customer that called after undoing all of the splices?

Carol aka Dancer sent me a private message. Here's one sentence from my reply:

I know that HD policy is not to discuss Codes either. Even if you are qualified to tell people Codes, are they qualified to understand them? Probably not.
 
Re: ground receptacle

just what can a home depot person tell customers?
Would make it rough if you could not tell them something they are doing is a code violation.
Please don't close this tread as i see a home depot person selling electrical parts very much in the trade and not a do it your selfer.And for them to care enough to ask is a right step
 
Re: ground receptacle

Combine this with the dyi tv shows, and its a scary scene. I have always wondered why more people aren't killed every year by these kinds of things. I know you all have seen it,people without knowledge working with a very high potential of enery. I like doing my own work at home (welding, plumbing ) also, but I also look at the potential for safety in the projects that I do. I won't weld a hitch on someones car, I know that I don't know enough to jepordize someones life. I think clearly education is the answer, but how do we get the public to understand arc blast? We still have people who dont' think hurricanes can kill you. The schools teach nothing about electical safety or its potential hazzard. And unfortunately neither do a lot of electrical contractors. I had one apprentice tell me he did the touch test for voltage after working for a contractor for alomst 6 months, his boss told him it wouldn't hurt him!
 
Re: ground receptacle

At the risk of sounding sarcastic, although not intended, where does one draw the line; pass laws forbidding anyone from doing anything unless they are properly licensed? Just about everything comes with a certain level of inherent risk. Electrical, welding, carpentry, masonry, etc., all have situations that warrant specific guidlines to protect us from ourselves. We all have different views about what is dangerous and where we need to stop and hire a qualified professional. The problems is we do not all have it right!

I think it is admirable that this retail person cares enough to ask the questions. I also think that one must be extremely careful about offering advice. We all know that it is very likely that the work being done by this customer will not be inspected for safety. What is the potential for liability if the retailer's advice is incorrect and someone is injured or killed as a result? Even this forum is careful about this.

Bob
 
Re: ground receptacle

I had one apprentice tell me he did the touch test for voltage after working for a contractor for alomst 6 months, his boss told him it wouldn't hurt him!
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I'll bet OSHA would like to hear about that!!! :(
 
Re: ground receptacle

For the guy who had a Mexican gentlemen who had not seen a wire nut before, let me relate a story.

I went to Mexico some years ago to start up a machine. The mexican electricians doing the wiring had made up hundreds of splices by tieing the wires together and covering them with tape. This was apparrently an acceptable way of wiring there, and to be truthfull the knot they used to tie the wires together was very tight and I doubt it would ever come loose like wire nuts are prone to.

Chinese electricans wired up machines using the same technique, except they used tape with no adhesive. We left a few rolls of black electrical tape with the electricians and you would ahve thought it was like gold the way they showed them off. They did not even know electrical tape was available with adhesive on the back.
 
Re: ground receptacle

The best thing to do is not even mention codes because telling most DIYers or HO's that "it is against the code, that's why you can't do it" only makes them scoff.

Tell them that it creates a very dangerious situation because the exposed metal of whatever is plugged into the receptacle is connected to one of the flat blades on the plug (Most understand the danger of sticking something into a receptacle). These have voltage on them that could electrocute somebody touching or holding the device. The reason that the ground test light shows a ground is that you are just fooling it because obviously there is no ground.

If you are going to replace the receptacle replace it with a GFI and don't connect the ground to anything.

-Hal

[ August 31, 2004, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: hbiss ]
 
Re: ground receptacle

Bob,

Originally posted by bthielen:
At the risk of sounding sarcastic, although not intended, where does one draw the line; pass laws forbidding anyone from doing anything unless they are properly licensed?

We all know that it is very likely that the work being done by this customer will not be inspected for safety.
Bob
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Sometimes that is what we have to do.
Such as in the State of Delaware, a homeowner can not pull a permit for wiring a swimming pool or hot tub.
It can only be done by a licensed electrician.

They can get a permit to add, say, a branch circut for a computer. But, why should it not have to be inspected?
 
Re: ground receptacle

Todd, in the past I have been in areas that would not allow a homeowner to wire a pool also.

Although not fool proof, and unless there has been a change I'm not aware of, a person wanting to wire their own home in Asheville must pass a simple test given by the Building Safety Department before being issued a permit to do their own wiring.

Roger
 
Re: ground receptacle

Luke,

I think you misunderstood my point. I believe it should be law, as it is in Minnesota, to have ALL electrical work inspected. I was pointing out that enforcement is difficult and it happens less often than it should. In MN we home-owner DIYers are able to purchase the components to do electrical work but how is it known whether the project will be inspected? I have witnessed people, and have argued with same, add a garage and wire it themselves never having it inspected. I failed as a citizen by not reporting the violation. One of these individuals was a fellow electrical assembly person (non-licensed). He found out the hard way that he was required to have an inspection before covering his work (it was attached with a finished interior). The inspector happened to notice the new addition in progress while passing through the neighborhood and asked for his affidavit. My colleague was given an ultimatum to apply for inspection or face power disconnection to his entire home. He ended up uncovering much of his work as a result and rightly so.

Many times homeowners replace receptacles but don't know that there is a polarity to the connections and as a result, the neutral spade is wired hot or the ground not wired at all. Supports the notion that even what we consider to be simple fixes can many times be done incorrectly and become dangerous.

Bob
 
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