Ground Rod At the Water Main?

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iwire4ny

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Hello every one!

THERE ARE TWO MASTER ELECTRICIAN ON THIS PROJECT IM ON 55 APARTMENT BUILDING 12 STORIES WITH A RETAIL SPACE ON THE FIRST FLOOR.
ONE ELECTRICIAL IS DOING SERVICE AND GENERAL LIGHTING.
OTHER ELECTRICIAN IS DOING FIRE ALARM. WE ARE DOING GENERAL WIRING.

MY QUESTION IS FIRE ALARM CONTRACTOR SAID THAT A GROUND ROD IS NEED AT THE WATER MAIN.?
IS THIS TRUE? IF SO PLEASE PROVIDE ME A CODE SECTION

NOTE HE HAVE A COPPER GROUND DETAL BAR AT THE ELECTRICAL ROOM WHICH HAS A 3/0 GROUND GOING 100 FEET TO WATER MAIN AND TERMINATING AT THE GROUND CLAMP IN THE INCOMING WATER MAIN PIPE. AND ALSO HAVE 2 GROUND RODS IN THE ELECTRICAL ROOM NOT MORE THAN 6 FEET APART.
 
iwire4ny said:
Hello every one!

THERE ARE TWO MASTER ELECTRICIAN ON THIS PROJECT IM ON 55 APARTMENT BUILDING 12 STORIES WITH A RETAIL SPACE ON THE FIRST FLOOR.
ONE ELECTRICIAL IS DOING SERVICE AND GENERAL LIGHTING.
OTHER ELECTRICIAN IS DOING FIRE ALARM. WE ARE DOING GENERAL WIRING.

MY QUESTION IS FIRE ALARM CONTRACTOR SAID THAT A GROUND ROD IS NEED AT THE WATER MAIN.?
IS THIS TRUE? IF SO PLEASE PROVIDE ME A CODE SECTION

NOTE HE HAVE A COPPER GROUND DETAL BAR AT THE ELECTRICAL ROOM WHICH HAS A 3/0 GROUND GOING 100 FEET TO WATER MAIN AND TERMINATING AT THE GROUND CLAMP IN THE INCOMING WATER MAIN PIPE. AND ALSO HAVE 2 GROUND RODS IN THE ELECTRICAL ROOM NOT MORE THAN 6 FEET APART.
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Stop shouting.
 
If this is in NYC, keep in mind the code is a little different but not that different.
706.33 was added. Amendment pasted below.

https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/buildings/pdf/ll39of2011_electrical_code.pdf

SECTION 760.33
Section 760.33 -Add a new section 760.33 to read as follows;
760.33 Fire Alarm Circuit and Equipment Grounding. Fire alarm circuits and equipment shall
be grounded in accordance with Article 250 and shall comply with the following requirements:
(A) Grounding Electrode Conductor. A grounding electrode conductor shall be sized and
installed in accordance with Article 250, Table 250.66, using a minimum of 10 AWG, at the
primary and secondary power source supplying the fire alarm system.
(B) Equipment Grounding Conductor. A separate green insulated equipment grounding
conductor shall be sized and installed in accordance with Article 250, Table 250.122, using a
minimum of 10AWG, where there are conduits supplying 120V to the fire command center, control
unit or distributed control cabinets.
(C) Grounding Separately Derived Supply. A green insulated equipment grounding conductor
shall be sized and installed in accordance with Article 250, Table 250.122, using a minimum of 10
AWG, in distributed cabinets where the 120V supply is not derived from the main fire alarm power
supply. In steel framed buildings, an additional connection to local steel shall be permitted.
 
infinity said:
A 12 story building must have a CEE no?
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My thoughts also. If there is a CEE no ground rods are required at all. Though rods are never required one could put in a ground ring, pipe or plate electrodes also to supplement the water pipe electrode.
 
Sometimes spec require rods as well as concrete encased electrode (Ufer). However, I suspect someone thought they were needed.
 
The metal water pipe is required to be supplemented by one other electrode which for a 12 story building would typically be a CEE. If you use a CEE no ground rods are required. If you use ground rods and using two as the OP stated then that is all that is required to supplement the water pipe electrode.
 
iwire4ny said:
Hello every one!

THERE ARE TWO MASTER ELECTRICIAN ON THIS PROJECT IM ON 55 APARTMENT BUILDING 12 STORIES WITH A RETAIL SPACE ON THE FIRST FLOOR.
ONE ELECTRICIAL IS DOING SERVICE AND GENERAL LIGHTING.
OTHER ELECTRICIAN IS DOING FIRE ALARM. WE ARE DOING GENERAL WIRING.

MY QUESTION IS FIRE ALARM CONTRACTOR SAID THAT A GROUND ROD IS NEED AT THE WATER MAIN.?
IS THIS TRUE? IF SO PLEASE PROVIDE ME A CODE SECTION

NOTE HE HAVE A COPPER GROUND DETAL BAR AT THE ELECTRICAL ROOM WHICH HAS A 3/0 GROUND GOING 100 FEET TO WATER MAIN AND TERMINATING AT THE GROUND CLAMP IN THE INCOMING WATER MAIN PIPE. AND ALSO HAVE 2 GROUND RODS IN THE ELECTRICAL ROOM NOT MORE THAN 6 FEET APART.
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The first and foremost thing is to verify that the incoming water line complies with 250.52 (A)(1) I personally haven't seen a new construction project with a compliant incoming water pipe in at least a decade. That may be different in your area. Almost every plan I see though has a detail similar to the one you describe showing a copper water pipe. Second, you would never be required to put a ground rod anywhere in RELATION to the water main. If you require a ground rod, which is supplemental, then the usual desired place is as near as practical to the service bond point.
 
Strathead said:
The first and foremost thing is to verify that the incoming water line complies with 250.52 (A)(1) I personally haven't seen a new construction project with a compliant incoming water pipe in at least a decade. That may be different in your area. Almost every plan I see though has a detail similar to the one you describe showing a copper water pipe. Second, you would never be required to put a ground rod anywhere in RELATION to the water main. If you require a ground rod, which is supplemental, then the usual desired place is as near as practical to the service bond point.
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But would not be a code violation to install a bonding jumper from water pipe to ground rod(s) either.
 
Ground Rod At the Water Main?

kwired said:
But would not be a code violation to install a bonding jumper from water pipe to ground rod(s) either.
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You are allowed to bond GECs within 6 feet from where the water main enters the building. Before the meter or any dielectric fittings, of course, all of which require jumpers.

IMO the water main cannot be assumed to be a reliable electrode as water utilities intentionally install dielectric fittings to reduce AC interference. They also are running steel sleeved in plastic and straight poly tube now as well.

The incoming water metal water pipes still must be bonded to the GEC but should not be considered a viable electrode, regardless of CODE provisions.


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DrSparks said:
You are allowed to bond GECs within 6 feet from where the water main enters the building. Before the meter or any dielectric fittings, of course, all of which require jumpers.

IMO the water main cannot be assumed to be a reliable electrode as water utilities intentionally install dielectric fittings to reduce AC interference. They also are running steel sleeved in plastic and straight poly tube now as well.

The incoming water metal water pipes still must be bonded to the GEC but should not be considered a viable electrode, regardless of CODE provisions.
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Actually it's within 5' and you're correct metallic water pipe electrodes can be changed to a non-conductive material that's why the NEC requires that they're supplemented with another electrode.
 
infinity said:
Actually it's within 5' and you're correct metallic water pipe electrodes can be changed to a non-conductive material that's why the NEC requires that they're supplemented with another electrode.
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Which brings up what I believe he was trying to say is that if you installed your supplemental electrode (a ground rod) via bonding jumper from that first 5 feet of water pipe, then someday that water pipe gets replaced with non conductive pipe - you have also lost connection to the supplemental electrode.

I don't think NEC addresses this specifically but is something that maybe needs some consideration. AFAIK you can connect that supplemental electrode to the first five feet of a water pipe electrode.
 
kwired said:
Which brings up what I believe he was trying to say is that if you installed your supplemental electrode (a ground rod) via bonding jumper from that first 5 feet of water pipe, then someday that water pipe gets replaced with non conductive pipe - you have also lost connection to the supplemental electrode.

I don't think NEC addresses this specifically but is something that maybe needs some consideration. AFAIK you can connect that supplemental electrode to the first five feet of a water pipe electrode.
Click to expand...

What you said is true but gets into the territory of "what ifs". I've seen plumbers work on water mains where they're done leave the clamps unconnected.
 
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