ground rod

[depatie]

in chicago how much should i charge to install a ground rod? i am hooking it up to the panel. they previously did not have one installed for there service. in chicago there are numerous services with no ground rod. some of the homes are more than 30 yrs. old. that was not code back then to install ground rods. so should I charge labor plus parts?

[ December 21, 2003, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: depatie ]

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: ground rod

what floor are you on?

 

[scott moran]

Re: ground rod

Why are you installing just a ground rod????

 

[hurk27]

Re: ground rod

I think what He doing is kind of the samething that we run into here in NW. Indiana. There's alot of older service installations that only used a water pipe ground without a ground rod. this is common around here, we have added many to existing services for the phone company and home owners.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: ground rod

"Why are you installing just a ground rod????"

Original ground rod damaged?

Main water line repair or replacement (plastic).

Out building never had ground rod for its service.

A few possiblities.

1 to 1/2 hours. You have to make money, trip charge + labor. Be careful being to fair, I make that mistake all the time, they will want everything you do done that cheap.

Mike P.

 

[pierre]

Re: ground rod

I do not know the Chicago code amendments, but are not two ground rods required to supplement the cold water, whether or not you are adding to an existing situation?


Pierre

 

[nift21]

Re: ground rod

scott please follow up on that comment, im curious as to what u meant by that

 

[scott moran]

Re: ground rod

I am assuming that the cold water pipe ground is in place and there are no problems with it. In Chicago, and many of the surrounding suburbs, a copper water service line is used. In very old homes it may even be lead.

My question is if the service is still in tact and was compliant when installed then there is nothing in the code that requires you to install just a ground rod.

If you are going to install a ground rod and bring the service into complainance, then shouldn't you also be required to install grounding bushings on the service pipe?? (Unless they used service entrance cable).

Also in the older meter sockets there is not a lug to install a ground wire from the ground rod. So now you have to put it under the neutral lug. Is this rated for 2 conductors under the lug. That is why in the older meter sockets they stripped a section of the neutral and slipped it under the lug and made it one cont. piece.

So I ask again, why are you just installing a ground rod????

 

[jimwalker]

Re: ground rod

The only fair way is T&M.
Travel time
1 or 2 rods
permit ?
what kind of soil (some down here can be pushed by hand 3 feet other have been rock and even with grd rod attachment on chipper hammer they take half hour.
Here again if i was held to a price on phone i would assume the worst and figure half a day for my man.So with 1 rod ,acorn #4 cooper,maybe split bolt and some straps and no permit im looking at $200 and hoping he is finished in 2 hour total time.
Part of my last job was estimating things like service changes.I always covered my butt and figured it high.
On one job i got beat real bad.
Was to set up a temp on a fire job.Build a temp service on existing block wall using meter all ready in place.We needed 100 amps and 2 wp quads gfci and a 50 amp gfci, because of the equipment they use to dry houses out and temp hook up pool.First hour waisted on checking job and making mat.list,2nd hour at supply house.3rd hour starts with rain 15 minutes after i start.Sit in truck for hour,rain lets up try again ,almost done, starts to drizzle but i deside to try and finish, then it really poors with extra sound effects.After 30 minutes and no end in site i give up and leave.Finish next day in 30 minutes plus drive time.This was
T and M because it was a rush job.What should have been a 4 hour job had i bid it turned out at something like 7 1/2 hours.Just wasn't a smooth job.Had we bid it we would have lost money.As it was this being a good customer we lowered the bill.
Prefer T and M anyday to a bid,fair for everyone that way.

 

[nift21]

Re: ground rod

scott, so what ur saying is that it would be better to leave it alone if the cold water ground is good, then to put a ground rod and not touch the rest.

Forgive me, but it seems like ur saying unless your going to bring everything up to code dont touch it at all

I mean at this rate should he put arc faults on all the bedrooms and smokes??

i would say a groud rod would be addes safety incase something went wrong with the cold water ground, they would have the ground rod.

Why is everyone so negative???

 

[jimwalker]

Re: ground rod

Nift21, not trying to be neggative.Given a house with no grd rod ,i would rather see it added even if that is all you update.The pricing is what concerns me.
Help us out here with your estimating,how much an hour do we need to figure in?
Material is probably at worst 20% differance from state to state and if anything northern workers go faster.

 

[nift21]

Re: ground rod

Jimwalker that comment wasnt for you, i agree id like to see the ground rod added even if its the only thing , After reading Scott moran's post i got the feeling that, hed rather see nothing replaced if everything wasnt brought up to date.

Like Jim said, i wouldnt do a ground rod any other way tha time and material, ive done them in Long Beach NY where u can hang on them and they sink to the point where u can loose them in the ground, lol, then in Pennsylvainia, where you need a damn jackhammer to get one in.

good luck!

 

[scott moran]

Re: ground rod

Not negative, just realistic. If you are going to pull a permit and put in a ground rod to update the service for a safty issue, then you have to update the service all the way.

You cannt have it both ways. If you do it half way and something goes wrong, then your on the hook for the loss. If the inspector comes and sees the ground rod and no grounding bushings then your going to have to fix that.

And if there happens to be anything else wrong with the service your going to have to fix that. And here you are trying to be a nice guy and "just install a ground rod".

Now your the guy that cost them $1400 for a new 100 amp service, and the homeowner will be mad because the old one worked just fine.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: ground rod

OK let me ask this, do we need to pull a permit for this.If so evertime the cable man or telephone or satalite man connects to the ground system then guess they need a permit too.
AHJ make this call not NEC .Nothing in NEC says we need a permit or inspections.Forcing the extra cost of inspections for something this small is what keeps people from making repairs or calling handymen.Do they have the man power to inspect every little job we do ?.Yes mam we can replace that bad switch for $60 plus $100 for the permit.Click

 

[pierre]

Re: ground rod

I am going to stick a pin in somebody's balloon with my comments to follow, I have been waiting to say this and now I will see how you guys think.

All residential services that I know of have the grounded conductor (neutral) grounded at the utility transformer. So if one were to lose the groundrod connection at the building, what would really happen?

For systems with a metallic cold waterpipe, what is the 'real' purpose of the groundrod?

And then adding a second one at 6 feet apart - is that really effective or a complete waste of time and money?

Pierre

[ January 26, 2004, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]

 

[tonyi]

Re: ground rod

FWIW, in a lot of places a "repair" using "like or same" materiels isn't going to need a permit. This can be dramatically different from place to place. Some allow virtually a whole house top to bottom rewire to be done sans permit, others would want one for a ceiling fan.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: ground rod

What happens if that drop breaks a neutral? return to what ??? If i have a rod at least it will try to balance some.
I remember a case on one of Mike Holts tapes about a neutral from drop broke and the house was getting return thru the swimming pool.

[ January 26, 2004, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[pierre]

Re: ground rod

How is the groundrod going to help when you lose a neutral to the transformer?

Pierre

 

[hurk27]

Re: ground rod

Jim
At 120 volts and at 25 ohm's the ground rod would allow the service to go out of balance with only 4.8 amps draw on this lost neutral. This is all the ground rod will pass before the voltage starts to drop off.
Second any fault between any hot and any neutral will not open any breakers as again the current will be liminited by the high resistance of the ground rod so a ground rod should never be depended to provide a safty for a lost neutral It just wont do it!

[ January 27, 2004, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]

 

[nift21]

Re: ground rod

when im from a permit wouldnt be needed for this job