Ground rods

[gerry]

Just curious about sidewalks that are attached to the house at the meter/service location.I've seen houses without driven rods but they do have a ground running from panel to the water pipe.Is this a violation or should there be two rods driven through the sidewalk somehow and if so should there be any concerns or tricks of the trade other than drilling and pounding away?

 

[ryan_618]

Re: Ground rods

Remember that the water pipe ground always requires a supplement, but that can be any electrode, such as one encased in concrete or a rod or a plate or strucural steel, or a pipe or...

 

[Guest]

Re: Ground rods

Ground rods must be driven to full depth. They are not to full depth if 6" is above grade.

Ground rods must be driven at least 8' deep. If you buy an 8' rod and leave 6" to daylight you don't have 8' in the ground.

I know the workaround for the 2nd example: Buy a 10' rod.

What is the proper workaround for the first example? How do you drive a rod to full depth if it's driven through hardscaping?

These two examples lead me to believe that it's really not permitted if you adhere to the letter of the NEC.

 

[dereckbc]

Re: Ground rods

AWWT, please read 250.53(2)(G) carefully and see if you would like to modify your statement.

Gerry, as Ryan stated the water pipe has to be supplemented, but not necessarily with rods. You can drill the concrete and install rods leaving the tops exposed provided you comply with 250.53(2)(G) and 250.10

 

[Guest]

Re: Ground rods

Let me restate my question: What is the proper way to terminate a ground rod above grade while complying with the code citations mentioned above?

Here is my new statement: The NEC and my AHJ prefer to have ground rods driven below grade. If they are not driven below grade there are other considerations including getting 8' below grade, and properly protecting the point of termination.

I will appreciate all constructive answers. Thanks!

../Wayne C.
awwt

[ October 23, 2003, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[pierre]

Re: Ground rods

I believe Gerry may be talking about existing services that were installed prior to the ground rod requirement, and there are no ground rods at the service. As long as the service is not being upgraded, you are not required to drive a ground rod.

As far as driving a ground rod in 'hardscaping' that is an interesting situation. Concrete in contact with the earth is considered a wet location, so if the rod is flush with the surface of the concrete is that satisfactory for code compliance?

Also there is equipment for protecting the ground rod connection with an access door as for the required access to the connection. I think that Harger makes one. I know others do also, but I am not sure who.

Pierre

 

[roger]

Re: Ground rods

awwt, why not say, You,re right and I was wrong, thanks correcting my mistake.

Is it so hard to admit when you're wrong instead of dancing around the situation?

Roger

 

[Guest]

Re: Ground rods

Dereckbc asked me to re-read the code and see if I wanted to modify my statement. I re-read the code and modified my statement. I did not retract it. It was substantially correct.

Dereckbc was right. I modified my statement (and my question).

Thanks Dereck! I'm glad you suggested I re-read the citations.

../Wayne C.

PS: I have asked this question before in a more correct manner, and still didn't get an answer

[ October 23, 2003, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Ground rods

Wayne why do you insist on making the simple difficult? [/b][/quote]You did get an answer.

If you did as you said and read 250.53(2)(G) you will see it directs you to 250.10. (As Dereck has pointed out)

The end of 250.53(2)(G)

The upper end of the electrode shall be flush with or below ground level unless the aboveground end and the grounding electrode conductor attachment are protected against physical damage as specified in 250.10.

Seems like the answer to your question might be found in 250.10.

Wayne IMO we should all feel free to toss out our opinions here, but I feel we should make it clear what is opinion and what is code.

When I say something is "The Code" and it is pointed out I am wrong I accept that with no dancing.

What does it hurt to say "I was mistaken" :roll:

 

[gerry]

Re: Ground rods

Thanks for the responses.I was just thinking about the drilling the sidewalk scenario.It seems to me that drilling has a risk factor for example you can't get the rod down I'am sure we've run into this, now what, keep drilling holes in sidewalk ( poke and hope ) or can the first rod be located far away from the service or is there a set distance for the first rod has to be I can not find this in the code book.Thanks again

 

[Guest]

Re: Ground rods

Originally posted by iwire:
<snip> Seems like the answer to your question might be found in 250.10. <snip>

Please re-read 250.10. If the answer is there I missed it.

I will appreciate any constructive answers or add-ons to my posts or questions.

../Wayne C.

[ October 24, 2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[earlydean]

Re: Ground rods

Acorn clamps are approved for direct burial, and they do not have to be accessible. Install the ground rods, and get them inspected prior to pouring the slab. Failing that, drive the ground rods anywhere you can, including in the basement.

 

[iwire]

Re: Ground rods

Posted by awwt

Please re-read 250.10. If the answer is there I missed it.

250.10 Protection of Ground Clamps and Fittings.
Ground clamps or other fittings shall be approved for general use without protection or shall be protected from physical damage as indicated in (1) or (2).

(1)In installations where they are not likely to be damaged

(2)Where enclosed in metal, wood, or equivalent protective covering

To me it sounds like an installation in a basement up against the wall would qualify for 250.10(1)

Or any place that you enclose the top of the rod in metal, wood, or equivalent.

Should I type slower so you won't miss the answer this time?

 

[flightline]

Re: Ground rods

I've actually done just that; installed the ground rods in the basement. The main problem with this is that of headroom. You may not have the 8' for the rod, plus whatever you wish to drive this rod down with. It is nice, however in that you can locate them adjacent to the cold water service and catch the rod then the pipe. I've done this for friends and have to believe that unless you have a tall basement ceiling, that it may be more trouble than it's worth. JMO

 

[Guest]

Re: Ground rods

Originally posted by iwire:
<snip>
Should I type slower so you won't miss the answer this time?

Nope. Got it. I missed (1) & (2) on the last go-around. That's the answer. You were right! It was right there in front of me all along Doh! Whoops! My bad.

[Next time feel free to publish the whole citation ]

../Wayne C.

[ October 24, 2003, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: awwt ]

 

[torint]

Re: Ground rods

If you could put the rod elsewhere on the property without drilling....that would be fine.
I'm sure that you are talking about a sgl family dwelling and not locating the rod a mile away
Putting it in the basement could also work. I guess to get around the height problem, drive the rod on a 45* angle. I guess you would have to seal the foundation to prevent moisture leaks.