Ground wire under sized

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

Jake7939

Member
Location
Philadelphia, PA
Older 12 & 14 NM wire had ground wires in them were of a smaller gauge (16 awg I believe).

Situation:
A receptacle without a ground but an undersized ground wire in the box.

Customer wants a grounded outlet.

Do you:
1) Used the non-code compliant ground wire and put a grounded receptacle in?
(Hey, it's grandfathered, right?)

2) Put a GFI in and mark "no ground"?

3) Put a GFI in as a precaution and also use the ground?


I know #1 is the easy way to go, but is it the way
it should be done for code compliant reasons?
 
Jake7939 said:
Older 12 & 14 NM wire had ground wires in them were of a smaller gauge (16 awg I believe).

Situation:
A receptacle without a ground but an undersized ground wire in the box.

Customer wants a grounded outlet.

Do you:
1) Used the non-code compliant ground wire and put a grounded receptacle in?
(Hey, it's grandfathered, right?)

2) Put a GFI in and mark "no ground"?

3) Put a GFI in as a precaution and also use the ground?


I know #1 is the easy way to go, but is it the way
it should be done for code compliant reasons?
Click to expand...

#1, if all you are doing is installing a grounded outlet on a circuit that has an operational ground in it. It's grandfathered.
 
I would use the undersized ground GFCI or not. Not using the existing ground is not wise at all IMO, unless maybe you take the approach of not using it also means don't use the entire cable.
 
If there is an EGC there you have to install it. Ive never come across a 2 prong outlet in a box with an EGC (doesnt sound right). The sheer number of badly made, disconnected, and broken grounds Ive seen in residential would make me go with a GFCI receptacle, unless it was a whole house device change-out where I can verify the grounds are good and fix problems as I encounter them (one reason I am slow at an otherwise routine task).

You really have no idea if that ground wire is attached, bootlegged to a neutral, complete from receptacle to panel, etc.

The customer likely wont balk at the additional $20-30, if he wanted it done the cheapest way, he would have bought a $1 cheater plug instead of calling an electrician in the first place.
 
Jake7939 said:
Older 12 & 14 NM wire had ground wires in them were of a smaller gauge (16 awg I believe).

Situation:
A receptacle without a ground but an undersized ground wire in the box.

Customer wants a grounded outlet.

Do you:
1) Used the non-code compliant ground wire and put a grounded receptacle in?
(Hey, it's grandfathered, right?)

2) Put a GFI in and mark "no ground"?

3) Put a GFI in as a precaution and also use the ground?


I know #1 is the easy way to go, but is it the way
it should be done for code compliant reasons?
Click to expand...

Codewise, #2- the problem w/ installing a standard 5-15 receptacle and using the undersized egc is that it would violate table 250.122- the egc is too small. Receptacle replacements are covered in 406- 406 says you must connect to an egc if one is available. It can be argued that the undersized egc in that old nm would not qualify today as such but it did at one time, so it could (and should imo- I really like no. 3 the best.) be interpreted as being grandfathered..... You need to check w/your ahj.


JFletcher said:
If there is an EGC there you have to install it. Ive never come across a 2 prong outlet in a box with an EGC (doesnt sound right).
Click to expand...

There was a fuzzy time frame in which the 1-15r overlapped with the reduced size egc nm- F.E. many areas, even after the 1962 NEC req for grounded recs, only required that the receptacles be grounded, but not of a grounding variety.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top