Grounded Conductor - Switch Leg

RD35

Member
Single phase 60A 240V circuit passes through a metallic J-box with EMT conduit. Circuit needs to have a disconnect added at the location of the j-box. If a 60A A/C disconnect is installed with a 1" nipple to the j-box and the two ungrounded conductors routed in-and-out through that nipple and landed so as to complete a disconnecting means, is there a code violation in this design? The grounded conductor and grounding conductor will not enter the disconnect. (Grounding by means of raceway metal only) I cannot locate a rule prohibiting this. Just seems a bit dicey to me though.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
There is no requirement to even route the neutral with the two hots if it is not used. If you are using the conduit as the EGC it is being routed along with the circuit conductors by nature of the circuit conductors being enclosed within the conduit.
 

ActionDave

Moderator
Staff member
.... (Grounding by means of raceway metal only) I cannot locate a rule prohibiting this. Just seems a bit dicey to me though.
There is still time to free yourself from the clutches of The Cult of the Green Wire. A metallic raceway is more than up to the task of being an effective fault clearing path.
 

kwired

Electron manager
There is still time to free yourself from the clutches of The Cult of the Green Wire. A metallic raceway is more than up to the task of being an effective fault clearing path.
think you misunderstood, he has no issue with using raceway as ground, is questioning need to have the grounded conductor brought to the disconnect.

Even if this circuit utilizes a grounded conductor, there shouldn't be a need to bring it to the disconnect if conductors are entering and then leaving same raceway again (a switch loop so to speak).

Switches controlling lighting that are on circuits utilizing the grounded conductor do require grounded conductor at the switch or the ability to pull the grounded conductor there if it should ever be needed, which is somewhat newer requirement. Only applies to lighting that utilizes grounded conductor though.
 

ActionDave

Moderator
Staff member
think you misunderstood, he has no issue with using raceway as ground, is questioning need to have the grounded conductor brought to the disconnect.....
This is what he said

.....is there a code violation in this design? The grounded conductor and grounding conductor will not enter the disconnect.
 

kwired

Electron manager
This is what he said
That is a part of what he said, I don't believe he is questioning use of raceway for equipment grounding, was just explaining there is no grounding conductor pulled through it, I think the main question was concerning whether there needed to be a grounded conductor in the disconnect and he just wanted to make it clear there was nothing in the raceway except for ungrounded conductors.
 

jap

Senior Member
Not that it matters, but, I'm picturing a wire type grounded and EGC pulled to the J-box, there's just not a wire type Grounded or EGC pulled from the J-box through the nipple into the disconnect. :)

JAP>
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
I think the main question was concerning whether there needed to be a grounded conductor in the disconnect and he just wanted to make it clear there was nothing in the raceway except for ungrounded conductors.
That was my impression as well. The question is does the nipple into the switch require the EGC and neutral conductor to be brought into it as indicated in 300.4(B)?

300.4(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of
the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor
and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding con-
ductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxil-
iary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or
cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with
300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).
 

kwired

Electron manager
That was my impression as well. The question is does the nipple into the switch require the EGC and neutral conductor to be brought into it as indicated in 300.4(B)?
300.4(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of
the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor
and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding con-
ductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxil-
iary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or
cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with
300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).
First the OP's circuit doesn't have or need a neutral conductor to function.

Second, though it may not be clearly stated in there, I think the intention of this section is to reduce magnetic effects. We certainly don't need to bring a neutral to a typical wall switch (until they changed rule some for possibility of control devices that may need it) because if you have line in and line out from a switch in same raceway or cable the magnetic effects cancel each other if both (or all four in OP's application)

The EGC still needs to run with conductors or be enclosing them, it has no magnetic effects until there is fault current being carried on it, but they want it to be with the other conductors or enclosing them for same magnetic effect reasons during a fault condition.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
300.4(B) simply requires that the grounded conductor (IF USED) be run together in the same raceway as the other associated conductors. You can't run it separately.

You don't have to run the neutral if you don't need it.

-Hal
 

kwired

Electron manager
300.4(B) simply requires that the grounded conductor (IF USED) be run together in the same raceway as the other associated conductors. You can't run it separately.

You don't have to run the neutral if you don't need it.

-Hal
:thumbsup:
 

RD35

Member
Sorry folks! I had to be away for a while and just now got back to this thread! I was thinking there was a section in the code addressing this....and you have led me to it! 300.3(B) (2017 edition)! The first sentence where it says "where used" is what I needed to know! Thank-you! I probably gave a little too much detail and made my OP confusing. I was only concerned about whether I needed to have the grounded conductor enter that switch box. Seems the majority of you all agree that I don't. And so that is how I will draw up the design for this switch. Will use a 1" nipple (although a 3/4 would work...just easier for the electrician to pull) and (4) #6 THHN conductors (2 in...and 2 out). Thanks everybody for the great discussion and the code guidance! I'm still rusty from being away from this work for a few years. I keep reading the code and following this forum! Getting spun up pretty quick!
 

RD35

Member
Sorry for the double post.....not sure how that happened! Looks like I accidentally posted it up before I finished proofreading/editing it.
 

jap

Senior Member
First the OP's circuit doesn't have or need a neutral conductor to function.
The circuit may not need the neutral conductor to function, but, I think he has one, otherwise, why would he have even mentioned a "grounded conductor" in his original post?

JAP>
 

kwired

Electron manager
The circuit may not need the neutral conductor to function, but, I think he has one, otherwise, why would he have even mentioned a "grounded conductor" in his original post?

JAP>
IDK, but if the load doesn't utilize a neutral yet you run one anyway does it count as one of the "all conductors of the circuit"?

No different than pulling extras that are not white or gray IMO. They mean nothing to the rules in discussion here, until you utilize them.
 
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