Grounded conductors routed to a relocated main panel

[FRANK ELECTRIC]

The job I am specifing is: the customer wanted Her existing 100 amp panel replaced, it was currently in the bathroom so after assessing the job I determined that relocating the panel on the same wall just in another room was going to be the most cost efficient way to accomplish this. As You can see in the pictures, I used a 2" pipe to connect the old panel to the new panel for the branch conductors, My question is this: what code section(s) require Me to route each individual grounded conductor (neutral) from the existing panel to the new panel? Would it be acceptable to route one, two or however many larger conductors for the branch neutrals (in the new panel)that would equal or exceed the circular mills of the combined individual neutral's in the old panel? To be safe I did route each neutral individually although I'm just curious. The old panel is an accessable junction box (by removing screws) where I spliced the branch wiring.

Note: I would have replaced / relocated the meter (reccomended it to the customer) due to round type and unaccessable since a room was built around it) although she didn't have the funds at this time. The Splices for the service enterance are crimp (irreversable) type connections also.

 

[macmikeman]

Ok Iwire, they don't look like arc fault breakers to me... let him have it right between the eyes...

To original poster- I'm just having some fun with another member. Please do not mind me.

 

[FRANK ELECTRIC]

Of course You realize this job was done before arc fault breakers even existed, can't You see the date on the picture? Maybe it rubbed off since they are so old...... (LOL)

 

[chris kennedy]

300.3(b)...

 

[Dennis Alwon]

That whole install looks like a violation. Is that meter in the house? Chris gave you the article number that req. the neutrals to run together with the circuits.

How would you comply with 210.4 if you use a larger grounded conductor?

 

[360Youth]

That whole install looks like a violation. Is that meter in the house? Chris gave you the article number that req. the neutrals to run together with the circuits.

How would you comply with 210.4 if you use a larger grounded conductor?

If he sets a neutral bar in the old panel/new j-box, and an appropriate sized conductor for the new panel, is it then legal? Doesn't seem much different than ATS/load center designs. I agree with the meter inside the premises. That seemed off, but probably done before he showed up.

 

[220/221]

Would it be acceptable to route one, two or however many larger conductors for the branch neutrals (in the new panel)that would equal or exceed the circular mills of the combined individual neutral's in the old panel?

I don't know what the NEC says, but it wouldn't make any sense. You have like 4 or 5 neutrals @ about 24" each. Common sense dictates running individual conductors for, if nothing else, future troubleshooting.

I was asked the same question several years ago involving a panel relocation of about 50' with a dozen or so neutrals. I told him he had to run separate conductors.

 

[LarryFine]

I was asked the same question several years ago involving a panel relocation of about 50' with a dozen or so neutrals. I told him he had to run separate conductors.

I almost always extend circuits as MWBC's, unless there are reasons not to.

 

[220/221]

I try to avoid MWBC's unless they are existing (cable) or need the conduit space.

Example.

Extending four 2 wire cables could be done with 2 two wire cables but you create the dreaded MWBC open neutral potential and you remove the option of someone installing AFCI/GFCI breakers or converting a 120 circuit to a 240.

For future troubleshooting, it seems best (to me) just to extend what is existing.

 

[FRANK ELECTRIC]

first off I would like to say I'm glad I have joined this site, a friend recently mentioned to Me that He has learned (in a short time) more code related issues on this site then He did in a number of Years woking as an electrician.

Getting back to the topic and My question I posted. I agree the situation is a voilation (existing meter base unaccessable due to an addition being built around it prior to My showing up to do an estimate, hence My proposal to the customer clearly advising a meter relocation / upgrade along with a price to do so) also My seeking advise from a reputable inspector about the situation as well before comiting to perform the work due to the libility (He said If I performed any work in the "old round style meter" it would need to be changed, that is why I extended the Service enterance conductors with approved "irreversable crimp style" connectors from the now "new junction box" rather then from the existing Meter base. And I had to face the fact that that the customer didn't want to spend the money to have the meter moved, so since I don't do charity work in this economy I chose to perform the best and safe install under the conditions I was presented, got the job and made some money.

I did extend the neutrals, and did install a seperate neutral bar in the "new junction box" along with an extra # 4 grounded conductor between boxes. I assured the install was adaquate although I just wondered if it could have been done with one Neutral (of correct calculated size) and still be code compliant. The Transfer switch example Youth posted makes Me wonder if It could have been done that way. That raises the question of why doesn't each individual neutral have to be routed through an ATS load center.

I totally agree with being safe rather then sorry but since I just joined the site I thought I would throw one out there for the experts to wrestle with.

Thanks guys!

Any other thoughts?

Frank.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If he sets a neutral bar in the old panel/new j-box, and an appropriate sized conductor for the new panel, is it then legal? Doesn't seem much different than ATS/load center designs. I agree with the meter inside the premises. That seemed off, but probably done before he showed up.

I am not sure I am following. A feeder to a panel is okay yes but the branch circuits have there neutrals going into the panel that it is fed from. The panel is fed from a genny or the poco so there is no issue. If however you run a branch circuit say 5 circuits and size the neutral to that load then this is not a feeder but an unusual MWBC. Technically I don't know what it would be called but it feels and smells wrong. The reason 210.4 exists is so that you can open all the ungrounded conductors of a circuit simultaneously. Now we can argue if it is a MWBC but we do know the code does not want one neutral feeding more than one ungrounded conductor without handle ties or a multi-pole breaker. This cannot be done with 5 or more breakers.

 

[360Youth]

Now we can argue if it is a MWBC but we do know the code does not want one neutral feeding more than one ungrounded conductor without handle ties or a multi-pole breaker. This cannot be done with 5 or more breakers.

Good point

 

[FRANK ELECTRIC]

Sounds like a good enough explanation for Me, I'm gald I performed the install as I did and will feel comfortable for the next one whthout question.

Thanks all,

Frank.

 

[Greg1707]

Mwbc

Mwbc

How does one identify the MWBCs in an older panel when the branch circuits leaving the panel are in conduit? This often comes up when replacing a panel and none of the MWBCs are on two pole breakers.

 

[FRANK ELECTRIC]

Thats a good question..... and I'm sure there is a good answer (without going through a whole lot of timley tracing of circuits) although I'll have to take some time to think about it. Gives Me something to think about while I'm trying too stay out of trouble. Glad I joined the Forum!

Frank.

 

[macmikeman]

How does one identify the MWBCs in an older panel when the branch circuits leaving the panel are in conduit? This often comes up when replacing a panel and none of the MWBCs are on two pole breakers.

Amprobe makes some great testers. They measure current. Thats how I id for shared neutrals when I swap out panels that are not obvious. I load test neutrals. You can put a load on a single circuit with all the others off. Find its neut. Mark it. put a load on all the rest of the suspects one at a time. Thats how to find out if a neutral is shared by any other circuit breaker. Yes its time consuming. All part of my sky high service fee's...... And for safety sake I make sure whatever phase a breaker is on before I pull it , it goes back on that same one so just in case it is part of a multiwire, it doesn't suddenly double up the neutral current. Thankfully, most times there is a color scheme that got followed so its not so hard to figure out, but yea, some conduits are packed up with all kinds of bogus things like 15 blue hots and one black and 8 or 9 neutrals. Those take some investigating.

 

[220/221]

How does one identify the MWBCs in an older panel when the branch circuits leaving the panel are in conduit? This often comes up when replacing a panel and none of the MWBCs are on two pole breakers.

I hate when that happens.

1. You hope that the wiring is stock and was done properly.

2. You start taking things apart.

3. You guess ???

 

[LarryFine]

The best "guess" would probably be to use a clamp-on ammeter on the neutrals while you flip breakers, hoping there's a load on every circuit.

 

[hurk27]

I use a combination of a Amp Probe and my circuit tracers, most of the time the circuit tracer will send a signal back to the neutral if there is some kind of load on it, and I can mark it, but after checking all the hots and I get no signal then you have to go find the other end and put a load on it, but as others I always "map out" my circuits, more then once have I been tricked up by DYS wiring, and even my own fault of not remembering, Oh that also brings to mind my other tool that works great, a camera, take photos so you can go back and see how the wire was connected in the old panel, I had a thread on here where I posted some of a panel change and sitting here looking at the photos after I have long left the job I found two major mistakes I made, so a camera is a great tool to have.

heres the THREAD to those photo's and you can see what I mean.

Just don't laugh to much:grin:

 

[LarryFine]

Just don't laugh to much:grin:

How much is too much?