Grounding a system question.

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Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
I think I follow what you are describing.

...
Same here... but a little more clarification wouldn't hurt ;)

If I'm interpreting correctly, the service, transformer, generator, ATS, MDP are all on a pad 150ft from building being discussed. Conductors running to said building are feeders, not service conductors. Both grounded (not required) and grounding conductors are run to a main disconnecting means at building. There would be no grounded to grounding bond at this building, but as mentioned, there must be a grounding electrode system (GES). Essentially the only difference between this GES and one where the service disconnecting means is located at a building or structure is the absence of the mentioned neutral to ground bonding.
 

JP490440

Member
Location
NW Oklahoma
Here is the layout, I’m not great at making computer stuff. The question I really have is does 258 (C) 1 exception apply to making the cold water pipe my grounding conductor and electrode for my separately derived system. If you see anything wonky let me know. It’s not my design but has recently become my problem.

Screen shot 2012-08-12 at 10.33.10 AM.jpg
 

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JP490440

Member
Location
NW Oklahoma
I meant the 250.68 (C)1 exception.
Sorry if you can?t open the document I?m on a mac, but I did save it as a word document so hopefully it's ok.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
... does 250.68(C)(1) exception apply to making the cold water pipe my grounding conductor and electrode for my separately derived system. If you see anything wonky let me know. It’s not my design but has recently become my problem.
250.68(C)(1) does not exist in 2008 NEC... new to 2011 edition, relocated in part from 2008 section 250.52(A)(1), which says essentially the same thing.

You said earlier, "runs the full length of the building above the grid." The last part of the exception says it must be exposed.

So if it has 10' underground, how does it transition to above the grid? Why is it inaccessible where it enters the building?

The picture is too small to discern any meaningful info, but your Word document opens fine for me.

Your diagram indicates the building feeders land in an MLO panel at the building. That is a violation. There must be a feeder disconnect at the building end of its feeders. See Article 225 Part II in its entirety. The disconnect is where you would bond the building GES (grounded conductor remains isolated from grounding).

Your separately derived system is required to be bonded to the nearest of water pipe electrode or structural steel electrode when present at the building or structure.
 
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JP490440

Member
Location
NW Oklahoma
The water line comes underground and then 90?s up through the slab inside a office wall. It then 90?s about 4ft above the ceiling grid and runs to the other end of the building 200ft or so. There are smaller lines hooked to it here and there for bathrooms, kitchen/ break area?s and such. So it is exposed above the grid ceiling.

I have no idea why the water line doesn?t come up in a mechanical area, but it doesn?t. I suppose I could get the GC to cut me a access door in the wall where the water line is if I need to. The exception seems to apply. I could be wrong though.

I was wondering about the common sense aspect of not having a main breaker on the 480 panel. I just set the cans last week, I can get different guts. There is an exception there as well. 225.32 exception 1. And 700.12 (B) exception.

I could be so wrong, thats the problem with the code book and me. My interpretation always favors my wants.

I could easily just put in a main breaker panel and forget the exceptions that may or may not apply. Thanks.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
The water line comes underground and then 90’s up through the slab inside a office wall. It then 90’s about 4ft above the ceiling grid and runs to the other end of the building 200ft or so. There are smaller lines hooked to it here and there for bathrooms, kitchen/ break area’s and such. So it is exposed above the grid ceiling.

I have no idea why the water line doesn’t come up in a mechanical area, but it doesn’t. I suppose I could get the GC to cut me a access door in the wall where the water line is if I need to. The exception seems to apply. I could be wrong though.
I believe the general consensus to be, that "exposed above the ceiling grid" is not what the NEC means by exposed. The NEC reference dictionary is Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary.

ex?posed

Pronunciation:ik-'spōzd
Function:adjective
Date:circa 1623


1 : open to view
2: not shielded or protected also: not insulated <an exposed electric wire>
In the context used, open to view to the common person.


If the office wall is an exterior wall, IMO, it doesn't enter the building until it emerges above the grid. If it is an interior wall, I would get the AHJ's interpretation whether entrance is at slab or above grid.

I was wondering about the common sense aspect of not having a main breaker on the 480 panel. I just set the cans last week, I can get different guts. There is an exception there as well. 225.32 exception 1. And 700.12 (B) exception.
There's substantial conditions in place for those exceptions to apply. Typical commercial properties seldom meet those conditions. Also, even though 700.12(B) Exception is not in the 2008 NEC (and assuming you do have a bona fide emergency system, not just a standby system covered under Articles 701 & 702), I don't see it applying when the building disconnect is after the ATS.

I could be so wrong, thats the problem with the code book and me. My interpretation always favors my wants.
Yeah, my interpretations used to be that way... until someone else got involved that had more authority than I did. :p

I could easily just put in a main breaker panel and forget the exceptions that may or may not apply.
Unless you have compelling evidence to substantiate the exception(s) being applicable, I suggest just putting in the main breaker.
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The water line comes underground and then 90?s up through the slab inside a office wall. It then 90?s about 4ft above the ceiling grid and runs to the other end of the building 200ft or so. There are smaller lines hooked to it here and there for bathrooms, kitchen/ break area?s and such. So it is exposed above the grid ceiling.

I have no idea why the water line doesn?t come up in a mechanical area, but it doesn?t. I suppose I could get the GC to cut me a access door in the wall where the water line is if I need to. The exception seems to apply. I could be wrong though.

I was wondering about the common sense aspect of not having a main breaker on the 480 panel. I just set the cans last week, I can get different guts. There is an exception there as well. 225.32 exception 1. And 700.12 (B) exception.

I could be so wrong, thats the problem with the code book and me. My interpretation always favors my wants.

I could easily just put in a main breaker panel and forget the exceptions that may or may not apply. Thanks.

What code is there for a main shut off on the water line? I don't know plumbing codes but most of the time in an installation like you describe you will see a valve near where it penetrates the floor and enters the building If inside a wall an access door will typically be installed, then you have access to your grounding connection.
 

jxofaltrds

Senior Member
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI
What code is there for a main shut off on the water line? I don't know plumbing codes but most of the time in an installation like you describe you will see a valve near where it penetrates the floor and enters the building If inside a wall an access door will typically be installed, then you have access to your grounding connection.

SECTION 606 INSTALLATION OF THE BUILDING WATER DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM
http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/st/oh/st/b9v11/st_oh_st_b9v11_6_sec006.htm?bu=OH-P-2011-000004

Everything that you didn't want to know about backflow:
http://com.ohio.gov/dico/docs/plum_BackflowPreventionManual.pdf
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
SECTION 606 INSTALLATION OF THE BUILDING WATER DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM
http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/st/oh/st/b9v11/st_oh_st_b9v11_6_sec006.htm?bu=OH-P-2011-000004

Everything that you didn't want to know about backflow:
http://com.ohio.gov/dico/docs/plum_BackflowPreventionManual.pdf

That is likley a code for Ohio from what I could tell, but would guess most of the requirements in there are requirements everywhere there is plumbing codes. And yes it mentions almost immediately "full open" valve being required at the water entrance to the structure as I suspected. Did not look any further to see what accessibility to this valve is required, but you would think they would want it to be at least somewhat readily accessible to be able to easily turn all the water off in some emergency situation.
 

jxofaltrds

Senior Member
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI
That is likley a code for Ohio from what I could tell, but would guess most of the requirements in there are requirements everywhere there is plumbing codes. And yes it mentions almost immediately "full open" valve being required at the water entrance to the structure as I suspected. Did not look any further to see what accessibility to this valve is required, but you would think they would want it to be at least somewhat readily accessible to be able to easily turn all the water off in some emergency situation.

Most everything I post is Ohio and it says so, that said most of Ohio's rules (building) are ICC based other than the NEC so the code sections should help.
 

Gregg Harris

Senior Member
Location
Virginia
Exposed can be in the ceiling; On or attached to the surface or behind panels designed to allow access.


606.1 as posted does apply to most states "International Plumbing Code". Some of the western states use IAPMO " International Association of Plumbing and Mechanical Officials.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
Exposed can be in the ceiling; On or attached to the surface or behind panels designed to allow access.
That's a fair point... but you left off a critical part of that Article 100 definition: "as applied to wiring methods". The context of "exposed" here is regarding a metal water pipe in Chapter 2, Article 250 Grounding and Bonding. Wiring methods are in Chapter 3.

I'm open to his above ceiling grid water line being considered exposed, if his AHJ will do the same. ;)
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Most everything I post is Ohio and it says so, that said most of Ohio's rules (building) are ICC based other than the NEC so the code sections should help.

Code sections don't help me one bit. There is no building codes in quite a bit of NE except for within the larger cities that actually have a building standards AHJ. The State Electrical division is statewide, and adopts the NEC, many of the larger cities or counties have local electrical AHJ, they must meet same standards the state does, but can have local amendments that are (so called) stricter than what the state goes by but can not have (so called) lesser requirements than the state has.

There are licensed plumbers around, all that allows them to do in most cases that an unliscensed plumber can not do is to make a tap off of a municipal main, or into a municipal sewer system. What is required for them to be licensed and by who - I have no idea.
 

jxofaltrds

Senior Member
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI
Code sections don't help me one bit. There is no building codes in quite a bit of NE except for within the larger cities that actually have a building standards AHJ. The State Electrical division is statewide, and adopts the NEC, many of the larger cities or counties have local electrical AHJ, they must meet same standards the state does, but can have local amendments that are (so called) stricter than what the state goes by but can not have (so called) lesser requirements than the state has.

There are licensed plumbers around, all that allows them to do in most cases that an unliscensed plumber can not do is to make a tap off of a municipal main, or into a municipal sewer system. What is required for them to be licensed and by who - I have no idea.

The code sections can help you. They show what is concider the "minimum' standard. Many parts of Ohio do not have residential inspections so I understand what you are saying. BTW here you must still use the RCO even if there is no building department.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The code sections can help you. They show what is concider the "minimum' standard. Many parts of Ohio do not have residential inspections so I understand what you are saying. BTW here you must still use the RCO even if there is no building department.

I don't know if there is any statewide building codes (besides electric) but if there is nobody is enforcing them so in the absence of lawsuits why should one expect them to be followed?

With the electrical - since the NEC is effectively a state law, and there is inspectors inspecting most of the work that is done it is being followed most of the time. There are times when a permit or inspection is not required, if work is done by licensed people that are used to following code chances are they don't bend too many rules when no permit is required, but there are still unlicensed people doing work and they don't always know what codes are and sometimes is obvious they don't care either. It is illegal here for unlicensed persons to do electrical work for someone else (can do their own work on their primary residence but that is about it) whether a permit is needed or not. But if a permit is not needed nobody that is going to do anything about it ever knows. Unfortunately, if someone is ever seriously injured or killed, that is when a thorough investigation could result in uncovering what some unlicensed person did, but it is too late to do anything then other than to proceed with lawsuits or even possible criminal trials.
 

JP490440

Member
Location
NW Oklahoma
The shut off valve for the water is up above the grid about 15ft from where the pipe actually comes through the slab. They located it where it would be accessible from the closest hallway by popping up a ceiling tile. (All the office doors have card scanning locks).

I?m putting my clamp on just after the pipe comes out of the office wall it?s in. 9?6? above the slab is where it becomes accessible.

I really don?t have a AHJ, the state inspector came to the other building on this same location I was working on. He checked licenses wondered around a bit then told me he didn?t feel that he needed to come back. He said they were mostly concerned with state funded jobs and were very busy.
I said ok...........

The buildings are for a large oil company and they are outside of city limits. The only inspector that actually inspects ( so far ) has been the state fire marshall. "Orange pipe is sacred and must not be polluted or other wise contaminated by any other material touching it." Of course the monkeys running it are doing cute stuff like trying to stick it through the middle my conduit runs and put their heads where my exit lights go, but hey, what else is new:)
 
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