Grounding Bar Kit

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emorson

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SquareD, QO, grounding bar kit made for specific load center. When it is installed in a main panel along w/ equip grounding bar label, and the green screw is in place on the neutral bussbar, why does an inspector say remove it, and not allow the suggestion of a proper-sized jumper between the two?

Is this use mentioned specifically in the NEC?
How can I find out more about it?
 
Re: Grounding Bar Kit

what is it the inspector made you remove? the screw, the jumper, or the ground bar kit?

the screw is normally removed if the panel in question is a subpanel fed from another panel. you only want the neutral tied to ground at one point, and that is at the service equipment.

i could not tell you why he would make you remove a ground bar, unless it was the wrong one for that panelboard.

as far as the jumper (if that is what he made you remove), it would need to be properly sized. possibly you sized it wrong and he had you remove it and reinstall the screw so it met code requirements.

my suggestion would be for you to hire a real electrician for this kind of work since you seem to be unclear about certain aspects of the work. you will sleep better at night knowing the work was done in a safe way.
 
Re: Grounding Bar Kit

Sorry, I knew I wasn't specific enough.

The inspector said to remove the ground bar kit. The ground bar is the correct one for the panel. It is a main load center, not a sub panel. The main reason for using the ground bar kits on either side is neatness. All the grounds on the ground bars, all the neutrals on the neutral bar, etc. Neat, specific, not crowded.

His reason: "Do you see a green screw?"

I indicated the green screw on the neutral.
I suggested adding a jumper.

He said, "Remove the ground bars and use what the mfg. intended."

I am wondering what the NEC has on this use.
Also, I'm just curious about other opinions on this style of arranging the grounds. Is it odd?
 
Re: Grounding Bar Kit

Are there farm inspectors? Are they as stupid as this electrical inspector?

Sounds like a perfectly legitimate installation.
 
Re: Grounding Bar Kit

Your installation was correct. The inspector needs to brush up on article 250.
 
Re: Grounding Bar Kit

There's a chance we don't have all the information, but it sure sounds legal.

You're sure that there is no way to disconnect the wires feeding this panel other than the main breaker inside the panel? They literally come off the pole from the utility, into the building, into the panel with no switch ahead of the panel?

Just trying to be real, real accurate here.

My daddy was a farmer for 25 years, and he doesn't wire for spit. Just making sure. :D
 
Re: Grounding Bar Kit

Originally posted by georgestolz:

My daddy was a farmer for 25 years, and he doesn't wire for spit. Just making sure. :D
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I sure wish I had a picture of the fused 3-phase diso I saw years ago on a dairy farm. It had 3/4 copper tubing for phase A, an oversized fuse for phase B and 3/4 EMT for phase C.
:eek:
 
Re: Grounding Bar Kit

Originally posted by paul:
I sure wish I had a picture of the fused 3-phase diso I saw years ago on a dairy farm. It had 3/4 copper tubing for phase A, an oversized fuse for phase B and 3/4 EMT for phase C.
;)

DummyFuse.gif
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Re: Grounding Bar Kit

Creative backcountry wiring is amazing. but,

Without wasting too much time on unrelated particulars, this house is in a city, it's mine, it's not a rental unit, it's not for sale. The inspector is a city inspector with 40 years of experience. I think he is accustomed to bare bones installations. (When he first came to the house, before the installation began , he saw ground rods in the corner and said I would only need one. I said I would be installing a minimum of two. He said, they only do that in the suburbs where they have too much time on their hands.)

I also heard someone from another state say that they have had inspectors tell them to remove equipment grounding bars from their panel installations, so I believe this is an issue that hasn't been resolved.

I will have to study this , if I determine that it is absolutely definitely code, nationally and in this city, then I will have to figure out how to present it to him because I really want these equp.grnd bar kits installed.

This house is structurally a duplex.

The drop from the pole connects to copper at the weatherhead, runs to a milbank 2-hub meter pan. Both sides bonded w/#4. The meter base has the capability of 200 continuous amps/side. At this time, in a concession to inspector, and because it works for me at this time, I am running only 100 amps /side.

First side, copper leaves the meter pan in metal conduit, attaches to a sq d main breaker load center. Neutral green screw bond attached. When viewed by the inspector, #4 was attached to the installed equipment ground bar and ran from there, at least 50 ft. to the metal waterline entry point. A second #4 attached to the same equip grnd bar ran outside and attached successively to copper ground rods in sandy soil. A gfci receptacle installed adjacent to the panel attached to a 15 amp breaker and the ground wire attached to the second equipmet grounding bar.

The second meter side , copper runs through metal conduit and attaches to a square d 100 amp breaker disconnect. 2 - #4 solids attach to sq d installed ground lugs in this disco and attach to the electrodes running from the first panel. Right now they are attached with split bolt connectors, but I have the copper irreversible connectors and a non-hydraulic version of the necessary crimping tool and plan to change the connections.

Wire sizes: 2/0 from weatherhead, #3 to the disco, #3 to the panel, #4 solid ground for all.
Conduit size: 2" from weatherhead, 1" from meter.

Panel installed main breaker down (side to side on/off). (This first came up in a phone call to the inspections dept. and they made it the basis for an allround joke, they thought my call was a 'set up.' They said they never heard of such a thing. )

Inspector green tagged the installation for energizing. But asked for g.bar removal and asked that the three grounds that he could see be attached to the neutral busbar. He also asked for irreversible connections where the grounds met.

I think that's everything.

[ November 05, 2005, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: emorson ]
 
Re: Grounding Bar Kit

First side, copper leaves the meter pan in metal conduit, attaches to a sq d main breaker load center. Neutral green screw bond attached. When viewed by the inspector, #4 was attached to the installed equipment ground bar and ran from there, at least 50 ft. to the metal waterline entry point.
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This seems to be part of your problem. The GEC from the water line should connect directly to the neutral of the service not the equipment grounding bar. This may be the reason that the inspector wants you to remove the bar and move your EGC and supplemental conductors to the neutral bar. Look at 250.24(A).
 
Re: Grounding Bar Kit

The GEC from the water line should connect directly to the neutral of the service not the equipment grounding bar. ... Look at 250.24(A).
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Trevor, look at 250.24(A)(4). ;)

Emorson, looks legal as can be to me, as long as you install a wire jumper between neutral & ground I'd jumper the two grounding bars, if I were doing it.

Your 2/0 copper may be undersized, but without a load calc there's no telling.
 
Re: Grounding Bar Kit

I know what you mean about the 2/0, I was going to go a size larger, but that and the upgrade already in my head is a different story.

I thought earlier about what Trevor said, and I did think of the location of the GEC connection when the inspector was here, and wondered why he didn't just say move it over, and allow the bars.


Although at the time, I immediately said I would connect a #4 jumper between the neutral bar the equipment grounding bar, and he wouldn't allow it. 250.24 (A) (4)
He said it wasn't intended by the mfg. Probably since the mfg supplied a green screw but not a jumper. More than that I won't guess at.

408.20 seems to allow the grounding terminal bar to be bonded by means of its connection to the metal panel. And when the inspector asked me if the screw/bond of the grounding kit I suggested at the time was green, I was flabbergasted, but unable to say 250.28(B) , the screw only needs to be green if the main bonding jumper is a screw only. It seems that, by means of the screw securing the equipment grounding terminals to the metal panel, the panel in a way becomes the main bond , because if the panel isn't metal, 408.20 then requires the grounding terminal bar to be connected to the grounding conductor run with the service feed, but full circle, that connection could be made with a main bonding jumper, ie. wire.

So, allowing the bond suggested in 408.20 to be the screw attaching the ground kit, then by 250.24(A)(4) the GEC is permitted to be connected to the equipment grounding terminal bar.
Otherwise, I think these kits would supply or suggest an additional bonding jumper.

I'm glad I'm thinking about all of this, because adding a jumper from neutral, to each grounding bar, and you suggest between each grounding bar? and perhaps all one piece, that seems like it would be more reliable.

Too bad my inspector isn't into conversation.
 
Re: Grounding Bar Kit

Trevor, look at 250.24(A)(4).

Emorson, looks legal as can be to me, as long as you install a wire jumper between neutral & ground I'd jumper the two grounding bars, if I were doing it.
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George you are correct. I was referring to the original post which used a bonding screw. As you've stated if the main bonding jumper is a wire or busbar than the EGC can terminate on the grounding terminal bar and isn't required to terminate on the neutral. The inspector should have offered that advice in lieu of the removing the ground bar option. Here's 250.24(A)(4):

250.24 Grounding Service-Supplied Alternating-Current Systems.

(4) Main Bonding Jumper as Wire or Busbar. Where the main bonding jumper specified in 250.28 is a wire or busbar and is installed from the grounded conductor terminal bar or bus to the equipment grounding terminal bar or bus in the service equipment, the grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be connected to the equipment grounding terminal, bar, or bus to which the main bonding jumper is connected.
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[ November 05, 2005, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: infinity ]
 
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