grounding conductor electrode connections

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augie47

augie47

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State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
edit: header should have been "grounding electrode conductor connections"



I was presented a outlook different from my own by another inspector, and, to me, it merits consideration:

Situation: (a) Building with effectively grounded steel framing

(b) Grounding electrode conductor from service disconnect
to steel.

{c} Metallic underground water system

(d) Water piping bonded form building steel to water line.

Question: Are the connections to the steel (b) & (d) required to be ?irreversible? (ref 250.64(c) {2002}).

In his opinin, in this siruartion, then steel becomes a "condcutor" since it
is used to connect the two conductors together (condcutir from srvice and to water) and 250.64(c) applies {2002}.

Not the way I looka t it, but interesting enough that I wanted other opinions.
 
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It's not the way I look at it either.
The steel IMO would be one of your electrode and 250.70 Methods of Grounding and Bonding Conductors Connection to Electrodes
shall be connected to the grounding electrode by exothermic welding, listed lugs, listed pressure connectors, listed clamps, or other listed means.
Also 250.53 (C) Bonding Jumper. The bonding jumper(s) used to connect the grounding electrodes together to form the grounding electrode system shall be installed in accordance with 250.64 (A),(B),and (E), shall be sized in accordance with 250.66 and shall be connected in the manner specifed in 250.70
 
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I agree with fc, the building steel is an electrode and you can run a bonding jumper from the building steel to any of the other electrodes in accordance with 250.53(C).

Chris
 
I also agree. The conductor connected to the service grounded conductor and to the first electrode is the GEC and must be unbroken or with an irreversible splice or cadweld. All other connections are bonding jumpers. This would be true even if the GEC went to a ground rod first. However, the GEC would still need to be sized according to 250.66.
 
infinity said:
The conductor connected to the service grounded conductor and to the first electrode is the GEC and must be unbroken or with an irreversible splice or cadweld.
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Just to clarify, you're saying that the conductor must be unbroken or irreversibly spliced, but its connections to the grounded conductor and to the first electrode need not be irreversible. Yes?
 
LarryFine said:
Just to clarify, you're saying that the conductor must be unbroken or irreversibly spliced, but its connections to the grounded conductor and to the first electrode need not be irreversible. Yes?
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Yes, the connection to the electrode is not required to be irreversible.
 
I don't get how that conclusion was reached (Augie's other inspector's). :confused:

That said, I fully agree with the above posters.

The electrode would need to be electrically continuous, but the connection to it would not need to be irreversible. It would need to be accessible, but...
 
Irriversible is for splices. The connection from eletrode to elctrode is to be continuos not spliced. If spliced to be spliced by irrversible means. by exception only.
 
The connection from eletrode to elctrode is to be continuos not spliced. If spliced to be spliced by irrversible means. by exception only.
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This only applys to the GEC. A bonding jumper connecting a grounding electrode to another grounding electrode does not need to be continious and splices are permitted and don't have to be irreversible. Take a look at 250.53(C), this section says that we have to install a bonding jumper in accordance with 250.64(A),(B), and (E), 250.64(C) is not one of the parts that are mentioned in 250.53(C).

Chris
 
250.64 Grounding elctrode installation (C) one continuos length with out splice or jiont except as permitted in (1) through(4)
(1) only by irreversible means........
(2) Section of bus bars..........
(3) Bonding jumpers from grounding electrodes shall be permitted to be connected to bus bars. I dont read where it says splicing is permitted thye are useing the busbar kinda like an electrode. Jumpers from electrode to electrode must be continuos
 
The grounding electrode conductor is only the conductor from the panel to the grounding electrode system.

The conductors between grounding electrodes are bonding jumpers

This graphic from the handbook clears things up

Bonding_Jumpers.JPG
 
I agree and none in the picture have splices in them and as I was saying the conductor goes from electrode to electrode either G.E.C. or bonding jumpers unspliced.
 
or bonding jumpers unspliced.
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I think that you missed the point, the GEC is the conductor from the grounded conductor at the service to the first electrode. The conductor from the first electrode to the remaining electrodes is a bonding jumper and as such does not need to be continious and can be spliced. Again read 250.53(C) for the requirements for the installation of a bonding jumper between electrodes, you will see that 250.64(C) is not mentioned by this section.

Chris
 
raider1 said:
I think that you missed the point, the GEC is the conductor from the grounded conductor at the service to the first electrode. The conductor from the first electrode to the remaining electrodes is a bonding jumper and as such does not need to be continious and can be spliced. Again read 250.53(C) for the requirements for the installation of a bonding jumper between electrodes, you will see that 250.64(C) is not mentioned by this section.

Chris
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Ok so what do you do with 250. 64 (C) 1 thru 4 especially C 3 Bonding jumpers from electrodes to electrodes. We cant just through it out. And I understand even in (D) taps. The GEC must remain without splice. Meaning tap with listed lug( reversible or non) to exsiting GEC to service. We are creating a system correct? III Grounding Electrode System. Even in the picture from the handbook the bonding jumpers arent spliced. Neither is the GEC. The bonding jumpers or the GEc go from service to electrode or from electrode to electrode with no splices.
 
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Ok so what do you do with 250. 64 (C) 1 thru 4 especially C 3 Bonding jumpers from electrodes to electrodes.
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250.64 is titled "Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation". This section deals with the installation of the Grounding Electrode Conductor, not the installation of bonding jumpers between electrodes.

Here is the definition of Grounding electrode conductor:

"The conductor used to connect the grounding electrode(s) to the equipment grounding conductor , to the grounded conductor, or to both, at the service, at each building or structure where supplied by feeder(s) or branch circuit(s), or at the source of a separately derived system."

So the wire that connects two grounding electrodes together is not a grounding electrode conductor but instead a bonding jumper and as such needs to be installed in accordance with 250.53(C)

Here is what 250.53(C) states:

"The bonding jumper(s) used to connect the grounding electrodes together to form the grounding electrode system shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E), shall be sized in accordance with 250.66 and shal be connected in the manner specified in 250.70"

Section 250.64(C) is not one of the sections that is mentioned in 250.53(C) so you don't have to follow that section for a bonding jumper.

Chris
 
I do see that.Im not sure I really agree with it because of the info Ive studied. But if what your saying is true then you could have slice after splice on bonding jumpers and Im not to sure thats the intent of the code. Even in the picture above shows the jumpers from electrode to electrode or tapped without splice. I know the terminalogy has changed to try to better distiguish a GEC from a bonding jumper. Just in using some common sense as people say we dont use in the field, do you think that the allowance of so many taps in the Grounding System is a good thing?
 
But if what your saying is true then you could have slice after splice on bonding jumpers and Im not to sure thats the intent of the code. Even in the picture above shows the jumpers from electrode to electrode or tapped without splice. I know the terminalogy has changed to try to better distiguish a GEC from a bonding jumper. Just in using some common sense as people say we dont use in the field, do you think that the allowance of so many taps in the Grounding System is a good thing?
Click to expand...

I am not advocating the use of multiple splices in a bonding jumper, I am just pointing out that it is not a violation of the NEC to do so. Good design and the NEC don't always go hand in hand. Something might be a poor design, say like putting multiple splices in a bonding jumper, but is still permitted by the code.

Rember that the NEC is the minimum.

Chris
 
I understand what your saying I just dont agree. Bonding jumpers are part of a grounding electrode system. Ok what do you do about 250.70 The grounding or bonding conductor shall be connected to the GROUNDING ELECTRODE by........ Not more then one conductor shall be connected to the GROUNDING ELECTRODE by a single clamp.......

So doesnt that mean that the bonding jumpers are to be continuos from electrode to electrode? Where does it talk about splicing in there if 250.53(C) Bonding jumpers refers you to this section for connection of bonding jumpers. no where in 250.70 1, 2, 3, 4, even talks about splicing or has an exception other then 250.64 (C) Continuous. Talking as you said befroe about the GEC. Yes I agree we have one GEC, then we have bonding jumpers that create a whole grounding electrode system. Why would the code want to make less of part of that system? I dont beleive it would. So if you went to a rod for yuor GEC and then to footer steel to metal water piping lets say why would even minimum code leave for such of a design flaw when it is known that the footer steel is a better grounding electrode?
 
The NEC flat out does not prohibit splices in the bonding jumpers.

Why is a splice in a bonding jumper such a taboo when I can already daisy chain the entire GES?

I can run a GEC from panel to building steel, then 300' on the other side of the building I can jump from building steel to water line, than I can run from the water line to a ground rod, than I can run from the ground rod to the concrete encased electrode.

That is already eight terminations that can be made with any typical conductor connector.
 
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