Grounding Electrode Conductor 250.30

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ed downey

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I have a large building with (4) separate 4000A 480/277V services at each corner of the building.

There is a loop of 4/0 copper (used for raised floor grounding). Per 250.30(A)(4)(a) can I use this loop of 4/0 (which is for the raised floor grounding) as my common grounding electrode and tie the four services to it?

I think I can but the AHJ is indicating that he believes that I cannot used the Raised Floor Grounding Loop for this purpose.

Ed
 
I don't see a code reason why you can't, but if that is for the computer equipment grounding, they probably want that ground cable connected to the electrical system at a single point. Your proposal would result in multiple points of connection and very likely some circulating current.
 
The loop of 4/0 in the raised floor, if it connects to the grounding electrode and meets the other GEC installation requirements, that loop is for or can be used for the PDU grounding electrode connections, for the PDU secondaries that are separately derived and are located in the raised floor area.

What you propose, connecting the utility service point ground busbars directly to that sounds like bad practice. Between the multiple services, line and load side of the UPS's, and service supplied neutral connected loads, there is likely to be a suprisingly large ground loop circulating current.

What I would look for is an external 4/0 (external to the building if possible) grounding loop conductor connecting the noisy points ( the service neutrals and the grounding points of the huge UPS's) to intercept and carry the circulating current. That loop could be expected to be noisy.

In the raised floor area, a separate earth grounding system for the dedicated raised floor area equipment, everything bonded together, additional dedicated GEC's, with maybe a single point connection to the outside loop service points grounding. A raised floor loop, an inside loop, and an outside loop.
 
Dan, If the (#4/0) loop under the floor is tied to the main ground bar in each electrical room currently what good would it do to run a separate loop external to the building and tie it in to the same ground bar in each electrical room?

Thanks for your help on this.

Ed
 
Dan, If the (#4/0) loop under the floor is tied to the main ground bar in each electrical room currently what good would it do to run a separate loop external to the building and tie it in to the same ground bar in each electrical room?

Thanks for your help on this.

Ed

I'm not saying to run a new external grounding loop. I'm saying that's what I would look for to interconnect the noisy points. Think of it as dedicated paths. The service points and the UPS rooms are known noisy points. Any grounding interconnection can be expected to have a share of that ground loop noise on it. That circuit path is noisy with ground loop current, some reactive power flow from the UPS's, and some paralleled neutral current from service supplied neutral connected loads.

The raised floor area is expected to have its own quantity of multiple separately derived sources. The separately derived sources, the PDU transformer secondary and rack mounted power supplies, require two different grounds. The primary side equipment ground and an earth ground (GEC).

Quoting 250.30 (A) 4, allows group GEC taps on a single GEC connection to the earth. This can be or is supposed to be a clean reference connection to the earth. I don't know if we are on the same page on this. The 4/0 in the floor is required to connect to the grounding electrode (the earth), usually building steel in contact wth the earth. I would want to see the point of connection from the 4/0 raised floor area GEC onto the electrode. If you show me the service ground busbar and say that's the earth, I will say it is connected or referenced to a point that is noisy.

What are you trying to achieve? Grounding in the raised floor area has primary side equipment grounds, which can be noisy, coming in with the feeders. And a separate required connection to the earth, that can be chosen and maintained to be away from large facility circulating ground loop currents. If your objective is to connect the service points to each other, that is a dedicated separate system away from the 4/0 GEC system in the raised floor.
 
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Dan, If the (#4/0) loop under the floor is tied to the main ground bar in each electrical room currently what good would it do to run a separate loop external to the building and tie it in to the same ground bar in each electrical room?

Thanks for your help on this.

Ed

There's a historical electrical experiment which demonstrates something interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage

"In 1836, Michael Faraday observed that the charge on a charged conductor resided only on its exterior and had no influence on anything enclosed within it. To demonstrate this fact, he built a room coated with metal foil and allowed high-voltage discharges from an electrostatic generator to strike the outside of the room. He used an electroscope to show that there was no electric charge present on the inside of the room's walls.

Although this cage effect has been attributed to Michael Faraday, it was Benjamin Franklin in 1755 who observed the effect by lowering an uncharged cork ball suspended on a silk thread through an opening in an electrically charged metal can. In his words, "the cork was not attracted to the inside of the can as it would have been to the outside, and though it touched the bottom, yet when drawn out it was not found to be electrified (charged) by that touch, as it would have been by touching the outside. The fact is singular." Franklin had discovered the behavior of what we now refer to as a Faraday cage or shield (based on one of Faraday's famous ice pail experiments which duplicated Franklin's cork and can). "

I think of the inside and outside grounding conductor loops like this above. I would not say the inside loop would be free from charge and current flow present on the outside loop. I would expect some noise or signal would travel everywhere. However, the bulk of the circulating ground loop current will take a preferred, lower impedance path, especially a dedicated path provided directly for it.

Two different grounding paths for two different problems. At the services and UPS rooms, the grounding paths have circulating currents because of the nature of the equipment. Connection on that grounding path can be expected to see or take a share of the circulating current, which is done as necessary but not as a basis for communication signal referencing.

In the raised floor area, the problem is to provide an earth ground that also serves as an equipotential 0 volt reference for communication signalling, to prevent stray circulating currents from also flowing on the communication wiring, and to meet 250.30 (A) 3 or 4, grounding separately derived power sources in the IT space.

The experiment above is showing charge present on the outside of the conductor transfers preferentially to the outside and not to the inside. That's just how I would visualize the implementation, there's going to be significant noise and I would provide a path for that. The raised floor grounding loop, I could only hope the noise prefers to travel on the outside path and not significantly through the IT space. Note I say hope and not something more deterministic. Trying to gain an edge by choosing the path for the noise and choosing the point where the IT equipment is referenced to the earth.

Newer IT equipment has much better immunity from stray current flow on the grounding paths. The older stuff has a high rate of failure to operate from noisy grounding.
 
Thanks Dan,

The issue is the Engineer has designed as I listed and the 4/0 is also bonded to the building steel. The AHJ is indicating that a separate loop exterior to the building is required (similar to your post above), But I was under the impression that it would be acceptable as I had described and the engineer has designed. I want to have enough information before I set up a meeting with everyone and discuss the problem.

Thanks for the help.

Ed
 
Thanks Dan,

The issue is the Engineer has designed as I listed and the 4/0 is also bonded to the building steel. The AHJ is indicating that a separate loop exterior to the building is required (similar to your post above), But I was under the impression that it would be acceptable as I had described and the engineer has designed. I want to have enough information before I set up a meeting with everyone and discuss the problem.

Thanks for the help.

Ed

One 4/0 for everything would meet code but, imo, be inadvisible. It would not be surprising to clamp that 4/0 and see 100 amps ground loop circulating current on it, in a facility that large. IMO, a more extensive, separate redundant, earth grounding system is not required by code but the inspector is doing you a favor by moving you in that direction. It's an adder, an upgrade. Easy to install correctly at the right time and avoid expensive problems down the road.

You get paid for running wire, the more the better, in this case imo, is well worth it.

Should add 250.6 as a code reference. The arrangement is required to prevent objectionable current flow.
 
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As was stated ,,,that is a lot of old school stuff,,,,,,I cut my teeth in the middle of all that hype.In the late 60's and early 70's when PLC's and DCS was coming to the front.......Foxboro,Honeywell and others decided this is the way its going to be and they published cut sheets showing how their systems should be grounded/isolated.It kinda got accepted as an industry standard for a short while but not believed in regarding safety and not tieing all grounds together.They denied ever having done so.I carried around XEROX copies of those cut sheets for years because it just would not die(the design/engineering arguments). A couple of young sprout EE's did a bunch of studies proving that dangerous currents could be had on supposed low energy/voltage circuits and equipment if certain issues were not strictly adhered to.Some authorities decided it was better to run the risk .Its kinda like taking medicine,its proven all the time this medicine might be fatal but its better to live a little while longer etc etc. I retired back before the turn of the century but a lot of Engineering companies are still hanging on to the old way,,,,,,,,who ever believed that an instrument engineer knew anything about grounding ? (I sure didn't LOL) How did those Suck and Blow guys(pneumatic designers) ever get control of specifying the PLC's and DCS equipment anyway,they still can't wire them up.



Now I'll deny having said any of this so no need to quote me ,,,,,smile,,76 years old still kicking but not walking much.

dick
 
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