Grounding of railroad tracks?

[Isaiah]

We have an ordinary rail system being installed (not electrified rail) through the new portion of the plant.
Does the rail itself have to be bonded to the GES?
thanks


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[zbang]

AFAIK railroad permanent ways aren't covered by the NEC, so generally no unless you consider them as part of the building steel. It might even cause problems if there are signals involved.

(Doesn't apply here, but if the rails carry traction return current, they're probably bonded as part of that power supply.)

 

[LarryFine]

I wouldn't think so. It could be bonded by the EGC likely to energize it, if there is one.

 

[jaggedben]

This is a rail system internal to the plant or a connection to railroad service for external deliveries or shipments?
Just curious, really. I don't think it likely needs to be bonded either way, but if it's internal it would be similar to building steel.

 

[Isaiah]

This is a rail system internal to the plant or a connection to railroad service for external deliveries or shipments?
Just curious, really. I don't think it likely needs to be bonded either way, but if it's internal it would be similar to building steel.

I’m getting it could go either way-it’s internal and does not go outside the plant. I’ll probably suggest we just leave alone.


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[mtnelect]

From being on this forum since 2003, it seems that everything metal should be bonded to ground, how can it hurt ?

 

[zbang]

If it creates bad circulating currents? If it interferes with other current flows? And what is "ground", anyway?

 

[GoldDigger]

If it creates bad circulating currents? If it interferes with other current flows? And what is "ground", anyway?

A lot depends on the construction.
Rails laid on insulating ties would not necessarily inherently be either grounded or bonded.
Rails set in grooves in a concrete slab would probably be grounded about as well as a Ufer/CEE based GES would make it, but that would not necessarily be good enough to eliminate the need for bonding (via an EGC) to a power system likely to energize the rails.

 

[Dsg319]

Why bond if it need not be bonded?
Wait for an open neutral and increase step potential all over the place?

 

[gthomas785]

Hiya - Not necessarily relevant to your situation, but many railroads use a track circuit to detect train cars. It's likely that bonding one or both rails would mess that up.

Track circuit - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Isaiah]

From being on this forum since 2003, it seems that everything metal should be bonded to ground, how can it hurt ?

Good point but a lot of it simply comes down to $$$. This client is ultra paranoid about changes and if it’s not a NEC requirement I probably can’t make it happen


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[jaggedben]

Hiya - Not necessarily relevant to your situation, but many railroads use a track circuit to detect train cars. It's likely that bonding one or both rails would mess that up.

Track circuit - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I rather doubt that, actually, except in the broadest sense. A track circuit is an ungrounded circuit and bonding one rail should not mess it up. However it's true that bonding both rails together would make the track circuit always indicate occupied.

If it's an industrial spur to an outside mainline, the spurs are almost never detected and signalled, i.e. no track circuits.

Also AFAIK traditional track circuits coexist with electrified rail where both rails act as the return for a single wire catenary and may be effectively grounded. Not quite sure how that works, but they do it somehow.

Nevertheless, the general issue is indeed a valid reason to claim that the question is outside of the scope of the NEC, and should be dealt with by standards and methods used for railroads.

 

[Opie11]

I can assure you no rail in the locomotive mechanical shop I worked in was bonded. 7 tracks through a building with space for 22 locomotives.

 

[jkinzieh]

Just a side point from me... (Electric Railroad Track Adventure)

Background...
Back in the Day we had industrial equipment installed in a building "in the yard'
Also in the 'Yard' were many other buildings, a dozen or so. Open Air Buildings, dirt roads connecting each.
We got called on-site, Service trip, for 'intermittent problems'
The equipment we had installed was Electronic Control Equipment of a Custom Design

The intermittent problem was actually many different intermittent problems. No Rhyme or reason. From a bunch of intermittents within a 30 minute period, then nothing for days, and everything in between. Much hair and sleep deprivation.
and a lot of .01 uF capacitors : - )

After multiple Service Trips, and Multiple Techs a discovery was made...
While eating lunch one day our Tech saw what he thought was a flash that came from one of the other outbuildings.
It was, so being on lunch Roger Chicken Chip Lemke took a walk to investigate.
Upon arriving he observed someone welding, production welding, he stepped closer to see.
After Observing the cool fabrication he made an observation, The Welder had his Ground Clamp attached to a Railroad track
Some things just make you say Hmmmmm...

Returning to his building Chicken Chip tracked Electrical Supply connections to our Equipment/System
These were open air loose ground buildings
He started digging and found the entire Control System in his building had been grounded to a railroad track

After inquiring he found out the tracks were all connected throughout the facility as this Was their method from moving product through their Production Process, building to building, which was abandoned, They now used over Ground Vehicles.

So all that to say that the welding caused noise/impulses to travel throughout the facility via the railroad tracks
Grounding was altered... No More Problems

Murphy... You have a 50% chance of being wrong at least 1/2 of the time

 

[mtnelect]

I have a side note, which I will post on "Camp Fire"