Hack but ....

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oldsparky52

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC USA
I was raised electrically by hacks. It's been an effort on my part to learn to do things correctly.

So, here is something I did last year while we were out of power and I am soliciting comments on how hackish what I did was, and if it was dangerous.

I cut off the female end of a 12 gauge extension cord and installed it into my panel. I connected the ground and neutral to the neutral bar and connected the circuits I wanted to use to the black of the cord by taking the circuit off of the breaker and wirenutting it to the extension cord. I think there were 5 circuits so I could use all of the lights (LED or CFL) and the refrigerator. It was a 1600/2000 watt inverter generator. It all worked fine.

I understand that 6 wires under a wirenut probably is out of the range of the wirenut, but I didn't care.

The circuits were all protected by the OCP on the generator output. There are no MWBC's.

So, what dangers may be present that I do not recognize? I don't see how this can affect the PoCo distribution because there is only one reference (the neutral bar) to the PoCo system.

I look forward to your comments (or not, lol).
 
They're glowing and they're archin’
And proud of it and snarkin’
They're work is always sparkin’
The Hackin' Family.
lightbuld1.jpg

Their panel's a museum
Begs firemen to see 'em
They really are a scree-aam
The Hackin' Family.
20.jpg

(Neat)
(Sweet)
(Petite)
So get an arc flash suit on
A broomstick you can count on
We're gonna pay a call on
The Hackin' Family.

~RJ~
 
romex jockey said:
They're glowing and they're archin’
And proud of it and snarkin’
They're work is always sparkin’
The Hackin' Family.
lightbuld1.jpg

Their panel's a museum
Begs firemen to see 'em
They really are a scree-aam
The Hackin' Family.
20.jpg

(Neat)
(Sweet)
(Petite)
So get an arc flash suit on
A broomstick you can count on
We're gonna pay a call on
The Hackin' Family.

~RJ~
Click to expand...

Probably not getting an accurate Ampacity reading with your meter like that.
 
190421-1343 EDT

oldsparky52:

Seems like a lot of extra work, and you work harden the copper wire.

I just pull my main fuses, and I have about 6" of isolation from the power company. Then at any time I can run anything that in total does not overload the generator.

.
 
oldsparky52 said:
I was raised electrically by hacks. It's been an effort on my part to learn to do things correctly.

So, here is something I did last year while we were out of power and I am soliciting comments on how hackish what I did was, and if it was dangerous.

I cut off the female end of a 12 gauge extension cord and installed it into my panel. I connected the ground and neutral to the neutral bar and connected the circuits I wanted to use to the black of the cord by taking the circuit off of the breaker and wirenutting it to the extension cord. I think there were 5 circuits so I could use all of the lights (LED or CFL) and the refrigerator. It was a 1600/2000 watt inverter generator. It all worked fine.

I understand that 6 wires under a wirenut probably is out of the range of the wirenut, but I didn't care.

The circuits were all protected by the OCP on the generator output. There are no MWBC's.

So, what dangers may be present that I do not recognize? I don't see how this can affect the PoCo distribution because there is only one reference (the neutral bar) to the PoCo system.

I look forward to your comments (or not, lol).
Click to expand...
You isolated ungrounded conductors from being able to back feed the utility.

Had you connected a transfer switch in non SDS fashion, you would have basically done the same thing with the grounded/grounding conductors.

I see no safety issues with those aspects of this situation.
 
As hacks go, it's not the worst I've ever seen.
The #1 issue -- preventing the generator from backfeeding the utility -- was accomplished.
Likewise the #2 issue -- preventing a male, finger-unsafe plug from ever being energized -- was also accomplished.
Did you put a strain relief on the flexible cord and replace the cover on the panel before energizing it?
 
kwired said:
You isolated ungrounded conductors from being able to back feed the utility.

Had you connected a transfer switch in non SDS fashion, you would have basically done the same thing with the grounded/grounding conductors.

I see no safety issues with those aspects of this situation.
Click to expand...

Thank you for confirming my thoughts.
 
gar said:
I just pull my main fuses, and I have about 6" of isolation from the power company. Then at any time I can run anything that in total does not overload the generator.
Click to expand...
This is as dangerous and illegal as insisting that you'll always remember to turn off the main breaker.

Sorry, but that's the only conclusion that can be made based on your post.
 
LarryFine said:
This is as dangerous and illegal as insisting that you'll always remember to turn off the main breaker.

Sorry, but that's the only conclusion that can be made based on your post.
Click to expand...

From past experiences, I find it best to disable something that at least will take some tools and a little thought to restore if you must do some sort of makeshift connection. Remembering to turn off a main switch is one thing, and easy for people like us to remember to do, but when you have been running on a generator and are eager to get normal power back on, it can be even easier to forget to undo whatever your makeshift connection was and be in a hurry to turn that main back on or put those fuses back in and forget the generator is still tied in, whether it is running or not.
 
It's also easy for someone less qualified or less familiar with a make-shift non-interlocked installation to make any of several mistakes when the more qualified/experienced operator is not present when the power fails.
 
LarryFine said:
It's also easy for someone less qualified or less familiar with a make-shift non-interlocked installation to make any of several mistakes when the more qualified/experienced operator is not present when the power fails.
Click to expand...
Correct, I wouldn't make any sort of makeshift setup and instructions of how to put it into use when needed, but in past when power was out, for several days, and they purchased a portable but want to hook it up, I have disabled something that will make them need to call me back when it is time to switch back to utility power. Exactly what varies from one place to another, but many rural services around here I could often take out leads between meter and main so that they can't backfeed utility accidentally, would have to be some intention to what they did if they do end up back feeding. Of course you then tell them they need to install a transfer switch, but at the time of the outage that was not going to happen, some will have one by next outage, some won't.
 
oldsparky52 said:
connected the circuits I wanted to use to the black of the cord by taking the circuit off of the breaker and wirenutting it to the extension cord. I think there were 5 circuits so I could use all of the lights (LED or CFL) and the refrigerator.
Click to expand...
After disconnecting each circuit from the breaker, did you check for continuity between the circuit's disconnected ungrounded conductor and the bus that had been feeding it? That would detect any unintentional cross connection in the wiring between two circuits. Such a cross connection between one of the circuits you disconnected and another circuit not disconnected would lead to your backfeeding that entire phase and the grid.

Cheers, Wayne
 
190422-2122 EDT

LarryFine:

You post #7 in response to my post equates my fuse block with a circuit breaker. They aren't equivalent. When I pull that block the fuses and the connections to the panel are removed from the panel. So, if that block remains under my control, then no one can reconnect the circuit without an identical block. A very effective lockout.

This is so effective of a switch that it would take a very large voltage lightning strike to jump the gap. A circuit breaker would give me nothing like this protection.

.
 
LarryFine said:
It's also easy for someone less qualified or less familiar with a make-shift non-interlocked installation to make any of several mistakes when the more qualified/experienced operator is not present when the power fails.
Click to expand...
I encountered this recently. Got a panicked phone call from a friend with ADD trying to hook up a portable generator. "The plug on the generator and the plug on the house are both "innies", but the cord has one "innie" and one "outie". What do I do?" He was envisioning plugging the generator into a GFCI on the porch.

Fortunately, that house has a proper hookup -- inlet and transfer switch -- that is impossible to goof up. I talked him through it successfully, but if there were a hack that required following a written procedure, it almost certainly would have been ignored.
 
drcampbell said:
Millions of identical fuseblocks have been manufactured. An enterprising hacker can certainly find one, and then your so-called "lockout" becomes worthless.
Click to expand...
But if you take it with you, that hacker must deliberately go find one and replace it. If you leave it right there for them you have aided them to some extent. This only for a temporary makeshift type of thing and not something you intend to be a permanent solution. I've done that when power has been off for couple days, not expected to be on for several days, they have no transfer equipment, you likely aren't getting transfer equipment installed anytime soon. Hook it up for them, but make it so they likely will need you to come back to connect to utility power.

drcampbell said:
I encountered this recently. Got a panicked phone call from a friend with ADD trying to hook up a portable generator. "The plug on the generator and the plug on the house are both "innies", but the cord has one "innie" and one "outie". What do I do?" He was envisioning plugging the generator into a GFCI on the porch.

Fortunately, that house has a proper hookup -- inlet and transfer switch -- that is impossible to goof up. I talked him through it successfully, but if there were a hack that required following a written procedure, it almost certainly would have been ignored.
Click to expand...
I won't put together any kind of makeshift generator connection with such written procedures. If they want instructions for use of their manual transfer switch and/or inlet I will do that.
 
gar said:
LarryFine:

You post #7 in response to my post equates my fuse block with a circuit breaker. They aren't equivalent. When I pull that block the fuses and the connections to the panel are removed from the panel. So, if that block remains under my control, then no one can reconnect the circuit without an identical block. A very effective lockout.
Click to expand...
The concern is that someone could connect and run the generator without pulling your fuses.

A proper (safe and legal) interlock makes it physically impossible to have the generator output conductors and the service conductors ever connected to each other, ad not depend on intentional actions.

Your solution depends on operation and intervention by someone who knows the procedure.
 
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