hard copper, for fire alarm reporting

[MichaelGP3]

OK, that was a misleading statement by me.


A DACT is connected to a copper "telephone line" (formerly "POTS")

A "telephone line" is not VOIP. A "telephone line" is not digital per se. The DACT is digital, but the line it connected to is not.

Yes, there is a digtial converter on copper lines, but its not over the internet, its switched through the PTSN.

Oh, and I cannot find it, but firelite has a paper out stating their FACP's are not listed for use with VOIP.

Interestingly, there are companies making IP communicators for fire alarm. FireLite is one of them. http://www.firelite.com/products/ipdact2.html

 

[iwire]

OK, that was a misleading statement by me.


A DACT is connected to a copper "telephone line" (formerly "POTS")

A "telephone line" is not VOIP. A "telephone line" is not digital per se. The DACT is digital, but the line it connected to is not.

Yes, there is a digtial converter on copper lines, but its not over the internet, its switched through the PTSN.

Oh, and I cannot find it, but firelite has a paper out stating their FACP's are not listed for use with VOIP.

Maybe I am still misunderstanding this thread, which side of the demark are we talking about?

If we are talking about the utility side of the demark I don't think the FACP makers can have any say in it. The phone company is going to switch to fiber and back as they want.

I have had a dialer for a Bosch panel not work well when the POTs line changed to fiber very close to it. I ended up finding another POTs line that did work. I started a thread about it and someone came on that seemed to know the answer and that was to increase the impedance between the dialer and the change to fiber. He suggested a 1000' box of cat 5 thrown in the ceiling or a part from this place http://www.sandman.com/index.html that would do the same thing and look more professional. He also said if I got the right person at the telco they could change the perimeters of the device that converts the POTs to fiber but he did not think that was an easy option.

 

[nhfire77]

Interestingly, there are companies making IP communicators for fire alarm. FireLite is one of them. http://www.firelite.com/products/ipdact2.html

Yea, I know. Off the cuff it may seem like a conflict of interest. However, from my personal experience, regardless of brand VOIP is NOT compatiable with a DACT. You get line trouble and FTC's.

In the eye of the customer you are at fault, not them for switching to VOIP, even if they were warned.

 

[nhfire77]

Maybe I am still misunderstanding this thread, which side of the demark are we talking about?

If we are talking about the utility side of the demark I don't think the FACP makers can have any say in it. The phone company is going to switch to fiber and back as they want.

I have had a dialer for a Bosch panel not work well when the POTs line changed to fiber very close to it. I ended up finding another POTs line that did work. I started a thread about it and someone came on that seemed to know the answer and that was to increase the impedance between the dialer and the change to fiber. He suggested a 1000' box of cat 5 thrown in the ceiling or a part from this place http://www.sandman.com/index.html that would do the same thing and look more professional. He also said if I got the right person at the telco they could change the perimeters of the device that converts the POTs to fiber but he did not think that was an easy option.

I am talking about the customer side of the demarc. But what the issue I have been dealing with is a demarc that is fed by fiber. Then there is 25 feet of CAT 5 from a terminal that is labeled "pots" on the unit to the dact/facp.

This is VOIP coming out of the "pots" terminals. This is not a telephone line. Verizon tells people it is, and unofficially markets it as such.

I have had very little luck with getting the right person at the telco's. I even ask nicely.

 

[stevebea]

I am talking about the customer side of the demarc. But what the issue I have been dealing with is a demarc that is fed by fiber. Then there is 25 feet of CAT 5 from a terminal that is labeled "pots" on the unit to the dact/facp.

This is VOIP coming out of the "pots" terminals. This is not a telephone line. Verizon tells people it is, and unofficially markets it as such.

I have had very little luck with getting the right person at the telco's. I even ask nicely.

How could this be VOIP without a modem/router? A T1 connection can either be fiber or copper, could it be T1?

 

[nhfire77]

How could this be VOIP without a modem/router? A T1 connection can either be fiber or copper, could it be T1?

Have you seen Verizon FIOS?

Its a fiber demarc, with 1 Gigabit Ethernet jack, coax TV output and four VOIP lines. They are NOT telephone lines. It has a separate power supply with back up battery. The ethernet port is then connected to a separate router, ie the one on the right of the picture. The "phone lines" originate from the bottom of the picture on the left. There is a IDC terminal for it.

I found an image of one:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://computershopper.com/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/media/images/verizon-fios/692574-1-eng-US/verizon-fios.jpg&imgrefurl=http://computershopper.com/shoptalk/notes-from-the-technoground/notes-from-the-technoground-ethernet-at-home-without-miles-of-wires%3Futm_source%3Dfeedburner%26utm_medium%3Dfeed%26utm_campaign%3DFeed%253A%2BShopTalk%2B(Shop%2BTalk%2B-%2BThe%2BComputerShopper.com%2Bblog)&usg=__ojY8a_vo9PNZ8kh2YsT5AmTTE70=&h=545&w=550&sz=31&hl=en&start=133&sig2=su2XVkY9rX1bY9ki98axkw&zoom=1&tbnid=9CfJSwypKRsZ3M:&tbnh=134&tbnw=134&ei=MclTTY3bO4rWgQeKyImxCQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dverizon%2Bfios%2Brouter%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-USfficial%26biw%3D1920%26bih%3D969%26tbs%3Disch:11%2C2029&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=581&oei=mchTTZDbBsrGtgfV2ejnCg&esq=11&page=3&ndsp=65&ved=1t:429,r:33,s:133&tx=28&ty=57&biw=1920&bih=969

 

[stevebea]

Have you seen Verizon FIOS?

Its a fiber demarc, with 1 Gigabit Ethernet jack, coax TV output and four VOIP lines. They are NOT telephone lines. It has a separate power supply with back up battery. The ethernet port is then connected to a separate router, ie the one on the right of the picture. The "phone lines" originate from the bottom of the picture on the left. There is a IDC terminal for it.

I found an image of one:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://computershopper.com/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/media/images/verizon-fios/692574-1-eng-US/verizon-fios.jpg&imgrefurl=http://computershopper.com/shoptalk/notes-from-the-technoground/notes-from-the-technoground-ethernet-at-home-without-miles-of-wires%3Futm_source%3Dfeedburner%26utm_medium%3Dfeed%26utm_campaign%3DFeed%253A%2BShopTalk%2B(Shop%2BTalk%2B-%2BThe%2BComputerShopper.com%2Bblog)&usg=__ojY8a_vo9PNZ8kh2YsT5AmTTE70=&h=545&w=550&sz=31&hl=en&start=133&sig2=su2XVkY9rX1bY9ki98axkw&zoom=1&tbnid=9CfJSwypKRsZ3M:&tbnh=134&tbnw=134&ei=MclTTY3bO4rWgQeKyImxCQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dverizon%2Bfios%2Brouter%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-USfficial%26biw%3D1920%26bih%3D969%26tbs%3Disch:11%2C2029&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=581&oei=mchTTZDbBsrGtgfV2ejnCg&esq=11&page=3&ndsp=65&ved=1t:429,r:33,s:133&tx=28&ty=57&biw=1920&bih=969

I understand now nhfire77. Thanks for the link!

 

[MisterCMK]

Yea, I know. Off the cuff it may seem like a conflict of interest. However, from my personal experience, regardless of brand VOIP is NOT compatiable with a DACT. You get line trouble and FTC's.

In the eye of the customer you are at fault, not them for switching to VOIP, even if they were warned.

I don't think it is a conflict of interest. The manufacturers have used POTS likes for ages. With POTS lines becoming less common and VOIP or other phone technology taking over the manufacturers cannot list their equipment with all of the different VOIP variants out there. They are providing an alternative means of communication.

 

[MAK]

Have you seen Verizon FIOS?

Its a fiber demarc, with 1 Gigabit Ethernet jack, coax TV output and four VOIP lines. They are NOT telephone lines. It has a separate power supply with back up battery. The ethernet port is then connected to a separate router, ie the one on the right of the picture. The "phone lines" originate from the bottom of the picture on the left. There is a IDC terminal for it.

I found an image of one:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://computershopper.com/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/media/images/verizon-fios/692574-1-eng-US/verizon-fios.jpg&imgrefurl=http://computershopper.com/shoptalk/notes-from-the-technoground/notes-from-the-technoground-ethernet-at-home-without-miles-of-wires%3Futm_source%3Dfeedburner%26utm_medium%3Dfeed%26utm_campaign%3DFeed%253A%2BShopTalk%2B(Shop%2BTalk%2B-%2BThe%2BComputerShopper.com%2Bblog)&usg=__ojY8a_vo9PNZ8kh2YsT5AmTTE70=&h=545&w=550&sz=31&hl=en&start=133&sig2=su2XVkY9rX1bY9ki98axkw&zoom=1&tbnid=9CfJSwypKRsZ3M:&tbnh=134&tbnw=134&ei=MclTTY3bO4rWgQeKyImxCQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dverizon%2Bfios%2Brouter%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-USfficial%26biw%3D1920%26bih%3D969%26tbs%3Disch:11%2C2029&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=581&oei=mchTTZDbBsrGtgfV2ejnCg&esq=11&page=3&ndsp=65&ved=1t:429,r:33,s:133&tx=28&ty=57&biw=1920&bih=969

Would that FIOS box be the same thing as an ATA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_telephone_adapter?

In my experience (no fire) with burglar alarms connected to an ATA on a VOIP system the reliability is terrible. I have found often that the devices lose dial tone but will still output 48vdc which the alarm system is monitoring. So if you have a site with a weekly test signal (obviously not a fire alarm system) you may not know until a week passes that there is a problem. Very frustrating.
Other than a test signal, do fire alarm systems monitor the voltage on a phone line to determine whether a line is connected? Or is it some other manner?

 

[MichaelGP3]

Fire alarm DACT

Fire alarm DACT

On the DACT's that I'm familiar with, the telco trunk pair voltage is monitored and a daily test signal is transmitted. If the test signal is sent through the primary line today, it will go through the secondary line tomorrow. Additionally, the DACT should be programmed to dial 2 different phone numbers (going to different line cards on the receiver, or to different receivers), and only one of these should be an 800 number (as a precaution against the 800 network becoming compromised).

 

[nhfire77]

Would that FIOS box be the same thing as an ATA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_telephone_adapter?

Same idea, not exactly them same. Instead of going from a copper RJ-45 WAN, it's a fiber WAN.

It's like residential cable modem, only fiber.

Michael is right about how DACTs supervise.

 

[gadfly56]

Managed Facilities Voice Network

Managed Facilities Voice Network

I recently attended a presentation by a central station provider which gave the perspective of the service provider.

It is certainly the case that all-copper connections from the end-user to Central Office to Central Station are going the way of the dinosaur. Most of the change is being driven by competition from non-traditional providers (CableVision, eg) who frequently in their terms of service specifically exclude fire alarms from support. I am sure that those in the fire alarm end of the business are familiar with the scenario: customer suddenly loses test timer, tech runs around testing everything in sight, customer says "oh yeah, we just switched to FiOS, etc", customer gets to re-install two analog phone lines. Rinse and repeat.

The 2010 edition of NFPA 72 deals with the issue by introducing the concept of Managed Facilities Voice Networks. An MFVN provider is responsible for all the physical aspects of the network. It must have physical control of ALL the network components. No bouncing the signal to a server farm in Chile. It must provide performance equal to the current Public Switched Telephone Network. For the signal routing to be compliant, it has to be MFVN from start to finish. You are allowed to transfer the signal from one MFVN to another. And in a TIA, the 2010 edition has raised the battery backup time to 24 hours. For more info, see the link Rick Napier provided. For once, New Jersey isn't entirely behind the curve.